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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: RobertW

Hi Robert W

Do unregenerated men (at least some) posses Compassion ??

Where does this compassion come from??

Why do men feel Compassion??

 2012/11/9 21:43Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

I posted this earlier but you might have missed it due the amount of posts that came at once.

Quote: where does compassion proceed from ??

I get where your coming from but remember the tree that Adam ate. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever Gen 3:22

We must understand that there are two sides to the story man can be evil but man can be “compassionate” good because he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But the key to understanding our hopelessness is that in eating of the tree we were released from the Spirit of God…

Looking at it from man’s viewpoint then man may not be all defiled. We are capable of compassion, of love. We know it’s better to be good rather and evil, we give awards to people who do good, who show great bravery in times of danger and we teach our children to be good.

But we will miss the issue if we look at it from that viewpoint because we will forget that we are separated from God’s Spirit. Being separated from God’s Spirit means that we are not dependent on God anymore but are independent of him.

So the source of the Good and Evil stems not from God but from Self.

Self has replaced God, but Self can never please God, if Self could please God then the unbeliever could get to heaven by doing compassionate works like taking care of orphans or widows, which many unbelievers do.

The difference between the good, which proceeds from the Self, and the good that flows from the new life is that the Self always has Self at its center. It is my Self who can perform and does perform good without the need of trusting in the Holy Spirit, without being humble before God, or waiting on God, or praying to God.

Since it is I who wills and thinks and does without the need of God and who consequently considers how improved I am or I have now become good through my own efforts, is it not inevitable that I bring glory to myself?

So when God looks at someone being compassionate but Self is at the center what does he see THE FLESH…

Hope that helps..


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/9 21:59Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: murrcolr

Hi murrcolr

I fairly agree with your post but let me address one area that I disagree with

murrcolr wrote ///We must understand that there are two sides to the story man can be evil but man can be “compassionate” good because he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.///


an intelectual understanding of good does not produce true compassion,the eating of the forbidden fruit for sure did not cause men to become compassionate. true Compassion is from the heart, true compassion is an attribute of God. it is part of the nature of man since he has been made after the similitude of God.

this attribute becomes more and more surpressed in men as more and more guilt enters the man

 2012/11/9 22:32Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
Do unregenerated men (at least some) posses Compassion ??

Where does this compassion come from??

Why do men feel Compassion??



I don't know that they possess compassion, but there may be times when they are moved with some level of compassion. The term in the New Testament comes from a root that we get our word spleen from. It means tender mercy. Jesus said that even the publicans love those that love them. This has never been the question as far as I know. The question is, can we love 'perfectly' as God loves.

Jesus comes on the scene in Matthew preaching some radical things that expose the sinful nature, the deadness of man towards God, and how he/she ongoingly falls short of the glory of God. In other words, God wants more than folks that give a head-nod to a series of commandments; He wants people that walk-out the two great commandments as a matter of course in life- which summarize the 365 Don'ts and 248 Do's (613 Laws) that make up the whole law. We are to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, etc. and our neighbor as ourselves. That is a tall order.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:44-5:48)

Jesus points out man's problem; he loves descriminately. Even publican's love those that love them. No big deal. This is not the question. The question is, do men love as God has called us to love; that is to say, do we have the same personality as God. What does He do? For He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

When a person receives the Holy Spirit for real, the Love of God is poured out into the heart by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 5:5) They are enabled for the first time to meet God's requirement (will) by nature and without coercion; and it is that we love like He loves. Not with a punishment waiting if he/she refuses to love; but they become people that cannot help but be moved with compassion and love. If they get angry, they default right back to love again.

Now we are back to our original subject again, "My spirit shall not always strive with man for he is also flesh." God seeks to goad men and women into the right path, but they do always resist the Holy Spirit. The consequence of this is found in Genesis 6 when the whole earth was FILLED with violence. They were walking according to the spirit of disobedience while simultaneously resisting the Holy Ghost that would have led them in the path of love and mercy. In some way they were yielded to and drawing from the murderous influence of Satan himself. Their nature is to hate; not everyone- but to a greater or lesser degree those that they have set outside of the circle of their love and compassion. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/9 23:58Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: RobertW

Hi RobertW.

RobertW wrote ///Their nature is to hate; not everyone- but to a greater or lesser degree those that they have set outside of the circle of their love and compassion. Blessings.///

But that is the thing mans nature is not totaly to hate, the unregenerate man naturally contains attributes of Compassion this is because he is created after similitude of God.
Gen ch 33 v 9-10
And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself.
And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

The attribute of grace and compassion and forgivness that wicked Esau showed to Jacob, Jacob says it is as though I had seen the face of God







 2012/11/10 0:24Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
The attribute of grace and compassion and forgivness that wicked Esau showed to Jacob, Jacob says it is as though I had seen the face of God.



I understand. There are other examples as well, not the least of which was when Pharaoh's daughter had compassion on baby Moses and spared his life when he in his infancy had been ordered killed. This is the residual image of God left in man. Although the image of God has been marred, it is not completely gone. Undoubtedly there will be many people in hell that had showed compassion on many occasions in this life. All their compassion showed, was that they were created in the Image of God and that their natural human capacity for love had not yet waxed cold. The Hebrew word for 'fool' (as in the fool has said in his heart there is no God) is Nabal and it means to wilt. This denotes a process. One is not born a fool, they become a fool through a figurative process of wilting. My point is that human beings, though fallen, are not totaly evil as if they are possessed of devils. But they can become that evil if they continue to resist the Holy Spirit and the light of their conscience.

What God has said about man (children of the devil) contrasted with where God is wanting to take man (sons of God), there is a great gulf affixed. I may send my dog to obedience school a couple times and he may learn to be a good-boy. What have I done? I have imposed an institutional law upon his constitutional nature. It looks like it is working real good until the front door opens and he sees a cat in the road. Suddenly his constitutional nature overrides the institutional law I imposed upon him and he bolts through the door and chases the cat. What happened? You cannot with law do what can only be done by the Finger of God. The dog would need his nature changed in order to be civilized like I want him to be.

Likewise, the Law may give man a figure of loving each other, etc., but when the trial comes see if they answer as did Jesus on the Cross or as Stephen when he was stoned; "Lord lay not this sin to their charge!" See who has a disposition like Paul that said he wished himself accursed from Christ for his kinsman the Jews. Man does not move in this love, but God has designed that we would.

I often tell people that regeneration is not a New Years resolution or a getting rid of a few bad habits; it is a total transformation of the person from being a child of the devil to a child of God. We become partakers of the Divine nature. This is not a doctrinal event; it is a bonafied life changing - flesh and blood 'happening'. It is the benefits of the New Covenant that is an exceedingly better covenant established on better promises. Man has always had sins forgiven; but in the New Covenant God has chosen to deal with man sin nature and give him a nature like His own- that can love the unlovable and without discrimination. God wants a people that will pray for those that are murdering them. Anything less is to sell the Gospel short. Just a few thoughts. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/10 0:46Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
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 Re:

Great post RobertW.

and blessings to you brother.

 2012/11/10 0:59Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Sree on 2012/11/9 9:14:02

“Philippians 2-6:- although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the LIKENESS of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

Grasped? That means something reached for. Oswald Chambers cleared this up very nicely for me when he said: “Our reach must exceed our grasp. . . . Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect.. . . If we have only what we have experienced, we have nothing; if we have the inspiration of the vision of God, we have more than we can experience.1”

Jesus, as Son of God, could never have conveyed His life to man as an example of life to be lived, intended as the Father purposed, if He had not laid aside His "birth right" to become as they were, i.e., flesh and bone AND blood __and all else that comes with that package. The only difference was Jesus was a sinless man Who was indwelt by the very Godhead of the Father, born with it as *one born innocent. His living His life was of the Father’s will in all that Jesus did and thought. He was, as someone put it, “Consummate man” not easily understood by man who was not consummate__nor could ordinary understand unless he partakes of that which is.__And then it is seen to be something striven for once “conception” has taken place in his heart. [Enter John3:3 and 5 to our understanding of the new birth from above]

*Though both arrived on the scene innocent and independent, the main difference between Adam and Jesus was Adam was formed out of the dust of the ground with no “indwelling” life of God in Him. Jesus was born with it. Adam was purposed to “arrive” at a point in his life, by a series of moral choices, when he would have received it whereas Jesus, who already possessed it, was given the responsibility of protecting it.

By being received as a “regular guy” meant that He could evangelize the people to the Father as a man and not as God; someone the masses could “more easily grasp”, until John 6 when He declared Himself Son of God.

Quote:
This is the word I quoted. I agree with Brother Robert that there is a difference in the Flesh of Jesus and ours.



In this from bro. Robert, I see no difference insomuch as His flesh was tempted every bit as our is. Jesus showed us how He overcame it.


Quote:
But my point is we cannot speculate on what the difference is because Bible does not put light on it. I believe everything that the Bible says is true, I do not support any theology to be blinded by it in seeing God's truth.



I think your Phil 2:6- quote does. I trust the Lord opened it up a little by what I posited. If He didn’t, it profited me in doing it. ))

Quote:
Jesus was 100% God and at the same time 100% man when he was on this earth.



That understanding is very true and needs be extended, made clear, to all those born again of Him for two reasons: to overcome our flesh, for the cleansing of our souls and, to protect the Godhead. cf 1Pet.1:22.

Thank you Sree for this. It has been a great help to me and I hope you a swell.

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Mark 13:26 (KJV) Hallelujah!!

 2012/11/10 5:49Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

proudpapa wrote: an intelectual understanding of good does not produce true compassion,the eating of the forbidden fruit for sure did not cause men to become compassionate. true Compassion is from the heart, true compassion is an attribute of God. it is part of the nature of man since he has been made after the similitude of God.

Okay to understand what was changed when the forbidden fruit was eaten we must look at where knowledge is seated.

The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness. Proverbs 15:14

The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge. Proverbs 18:15

Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. Proverbs 22:17

I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge Ecclesiastes 1:16

So the heart of man is where knowledge or understanding is according to the bible along with all the will and emotion, the very same place that compassion or love comes from. I can agree with you that we are created in God’s image but that image has been perverted and as such we can love or be compassionate but at a far lower level than what God is capable of, he alone is the only being of “True Compassion”.

Men’s heart was changed when he ate of the fruit there was a (using Robert W word) a constitutional change. A change to his nature, he no longer was what God had created him to be, “the heart” (or soul) was moved from the place of a submission to God Spirit’s to rebellion against God’s Spirit.


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/10 7:38Profile
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by murrcolr on 2012/11/10 4:38:19

So the heart of man is where knowledge or understanding is according to the bible along with all the will and emotion, the very same place that compassion or love comes from. I can agree with you that we are created in God’s image but that image has been perverted and as such we can love or be compassionate but at a far lower level than what God is capable of, he alone is the only being of “True Compassion”.




God's image cannot be perverted! So what is left is that it was rejected by "individual" man to set up in his heart a god of his own making__himself and anything else he might wish to worship.. 'Unrepentant man has said in his heart he will have no God over him'. In this is he his own god.

Quote:
Men’s heart was changed when he ate of the fruit there was a (using Robert W word) a constitutional change. A change to his nature, he no longer was what God had created him to be, “the heart” (or soul) was moved from the place of a submission to God Spirit’s to rebellion against God’s Spirit.



Man's heart was sealed to "Vanity" Adam was unwillingly subjected to with the hope of God that he would overcome it and move on in Him. He did not and sealed us all to our fate of having to our lifelong having to deal with it. It goes by the name, "Flesh".

 2012/11/10 8:24Profile





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