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Croref
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Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/8 20:17:03

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
RobertW wrote ///It is impossible in my view to understand regeneration until we understand original sin or congenital sin. I will offer one passage in passing:///

Would you also believe that Paris Reidhead understood nothing about regeneration also ?



I'm not a close follower of Reidhead, but I have listened to many of his messages. If he did not believe in Original Sin then in my view he would not understand regeneration biblically. That is not to say that he may not have many good things to say, it is just that his approach to regeneration would be on a much different order than men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon, Moody, etc. He would be more on the order of Finney and Pelagius and out of step with an overwhelming number of Protestants past and present. Both Finney and Pelagius have been greatly marginalized and worse for their unorthodox views. But, as I mentioned before I believe I have a good theory as to why Finney held the views.


Dear Robert, Objective thinking and not marginalization is the key to understanding the scriptures. That is why, those who are not objective, will never connect the dots-so to speak. That is why you/me can say about Reidhead: "He had some nice things to say"__however, what keeps you/us from going further is our brand of subjectivity. No apology needed here by either of us in that regard. That said and with the Lord saying He would not despise a broken and contrite spirit, in the arena of the subjective mind, how does one sustain a contrite disposition if he adheres to the subjective teaching about grace? Tradition and self preservation will blow us off course every time when we fail to tend the wheel in attempting to grasp the more complete doctrine of Jesus Christ. Using Luther in this we could say he was responsible for WW11 by his (mis-understood) stance on grace, his position being: all our sins, past, present and future, are forgiven. Taken the wrong way, the church, presumptuously, took it to mean forgiveness without repentance__and many still do.

God, in His foreknowledge of course, knew this and planned for it. Keeping in mind that God never gave anyone ALL the truth but Jesus, for His reason for being sent into the world, I believe that is why He gave us Wesley and others like him, to bring rectification to our thinking but, only made alive to those who are able to receive it without agenda except perfection in the Father. He knows who they are. Here is an example of what I am getting at that that the OP asks about:

"But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Genesis 4:5-7 (KJV)

I ask, where is the issue of original sin seen in this passage, that God addresses, waiting to rear itself that God could invite Cain to challenge it__and be victorious! KEEP IN MIND__no assist here, no special grace in this, no any indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was Cain alone against__what?____And it remains the same today.

OMT: In light of the above might we not re-evaluate what is a "Tare" that when He comes "will He find faith"__of Abraham?

". . . The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also." Matthew 13:24-26 (KJV)


Lov'in Jesus.

 2012/11/9 3:45Profile
Croref
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 Re:

by proudpapa on 2012/11/8 20:48:56

Hi murrcolr

excelant thoughts

where does compassion proceed from ??



Please forgive my un-invited reply that will no doubt cause consternation but, I couldn't resist?

Answer:

A heart of flesh____ )). And didn't we read something about such a thing in the OT?? <hmmm?>

<Gotta get up early for these things ___))>

 2012/11/9 3:55Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
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 Re:

Croref --- Quote A heart of flesh

Your right and you beat me to it. LOL

Quote: where does compassion proceed from ??

I get where your coming from but remember the tree that Adam ate. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever Gen 3:22

We must understand that there are two sides to the story man can be evil but man can be “compassionate” good because he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But the key to understanding our hopelessness is that in eating of the tree we were released from the Spirit of God…

Looking at it from man’s viewpoint then man may not be all defiled. We are capable of compassion, of love. We know it’s better to be good rather and evil, we give awards to people who do good, who show great bravery in times of danger and we teach our children to be good.

But we will miss the issue if we look at it from that viewpoint because we will forget that we are separated from God’s Spirit. Being separated from God’s Spirit means that we are not dependent on God anymore but are independent of him.

So the source of the Good and Evil stems not from God but from Self.

Self has replaced God, but Self can never please God, if Self could please God then the unbeliever could get to heaven by doing compassionate works like taking care of orphans or widows, which many unbelievers do.

The difference between the good, which proceeds from the Self, and the good that flows from the new life is that the Self always has Self at its center. It is my Self who can perform and does perform good without the need of trusting in the Holy Spirit, without being humble before God, or waiting on God, or praying to God.

Since it is I who wills and thinks and does without the need of God and who consequently considers how improved I am or I have now become good through my own efforts, is it not inevitable that I bring glory to myself?

So when God looks at someone being compassionate but Self is at the center what does he see THE FLESH…

Hope that helps..


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 2012/11/9 4:50Profile
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 Re:

by murrcolr on 2012/11/9 1:50:41

Croref --- Quote A heart of flesh

Your right and you beat me to it. LOL

Quote: where does compassion proceed from ??

I get where your coming from but remember the tree that Adam ate. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever Gen 3:22

We must understand that there are two sides to the story man can be evil but man can be “compassionate” good because he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But the key to understanding our hopelessness is that in eating of the tree we were released from the Spirit of God…




What did you do with Cain?

Quote:
Self has replaced God, but Self can never please God, if Self could please God then the unbeliever could get to heaven by doing compassionate works like taking care of orphans or widows, which many unbelievers do."



Why not just consider that Adam sealed us eternally to a life of warfare with Vanity that, without God, we cannot win?


OMT: Lets lay aside the heaven and hell issue because this goes w-a-a-y beyond that.

OMT2: Adam was independent of God before he transgressed.

 2012/11/9 5:24Profile
brothagary
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 Re:

thats the problem all deeds done by the self are inhertly selfish

unregernerent men does good so others might think he is good
he does good so he might gain friends
he does good so others will do good back to him
he does good becasue others do good to him

jesus said somthing like what reward will you have from god if you do good to those who love you

he does good because he thinks he should ,to live up to a selfstandard his self has set

he does good because it makes himself feel good ,

he does good to puff up his false scence of humility

he does good to get praise from people

he does good to bribe god ,to gain entrence into heaven


and i would submit jesus did not do any of these things

jesus did all he did for the glory of god as the primary motavation

paul said what ever you do do it all for the glory of god,not the glory of good

implication is what is not done for the glory of god is sinfull
what is not of faith is sin ,,paul said


and this is what fallen man will not do

so keeping scripture in mind ,,all good deeds from man are sin ,not being done with faith towards god
and for gods exultation,and glory

a filthy rag in reality

it only takes one drop of sewrage toliet water in to a bucket of pristeen mountaint spring water ,,and it is spoiled

we should not glorafie mans depravity ,it only tends towards taking glory due god

we dont need to praise mans faithless self centerd deeds as if he pleases god

with out faith it is imposable to please god


blessings brethern

 2012/11/9 6:10Profile
brothagary
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 Re:

the problem with satan was god made him so buetafull that he thought to highly of his self ,he was so nearly unfathenable in beuty that due to free will he turned to looking at him self ,,god must needs harden his heart

freewill and beuty was his downfall

when the kingdon comes i will be glad that i wont have the free will that satan and adam had ,,i want to be irasisably guided by gods will and not some freewill ,,god had his reasons for giving satan and the angles and adam free will in the fullest scence of the word ,,,gods will be done in all

blessings

 2012/11/9 6:25Profile
Croref
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 Re:

by brothagary on 2012/11/9 3:10:43

thats the problem all deeds done by the self are inhertly selfish

unregernerent men does good so others might think he is good
he does good so he might gain friends
he does good so others will do good back to him
he does good becasue others do good to him



Do you believe that was what Joseph was all about __ Abel, Abraham, Moses, David, Ruth? Shall I go on?

 2012/11/9 6:38Profile
brothagary
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 Re:

well i dont know what others think ,,,but in the old testament certaint indavidals had a personal relashenship with god and the spirit of regeration and were filled with the spirit ,that for me is being born from above ,,

these indaviduals did good deeds in faith by the power of the holy spirit ,even if they were not born again in the presise way we are in the new coverent



blessings

 2012/11/9 6:48Profile
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 Re:

by brothagary on 2012/11/9 3:48:24

well i dont know what others think ,,,but in the old testament certaint indavidals had a personal relashenship with god and the spirit of regeration and were filled with the spirit ,that for me is being born from above ,,

these indaviduals did good deeds in faith by the power of the holy spirit ,even if they were not born again in the presise way we are in the new coverent




Then my Brother, I would think it incumbent upon you produce evidence of that considering Jesus had to die, resurrect as ascend, before that could have been made possible. If, on the other hand you want to have be that the Spirit of God moved UPON the "righteous" for to do His works [judgements] then, you'll find no disagreement in me. You might think that David was an exception. Think again because, he was an unregenerate man after God's own Heart to such a degree God set him apart to reveal Himself in a very special way. Having said that, it was also the reason "unregenerate" Abraham was set apart and is viewed as the father of faith to all those "unregenerate" folk who believe in Christ.. that they might move on to receive the Faith OF Christ. cf Gal. 2:20 KJV only.

 2012/11/9 7:06Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
I ask, where is the issue of original sin seen in this passage, that God addresses, waiting to rear itself that God could invite Cain to challenge it__and be victorious! KEEP IN MIND__no assist here, no special grace in this, no any indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was Cain alone against__what?____And it remains the same today.



I typically use Cain as an illustration of how quickly the congenital sin made itself known in the human race. John, who gave us our Lord's words that we must be born again, explains the issue from the example of Cain:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:8-15)

Notice a glaring question in this passage, "Have you and I passed from death unto life?" Those that are in a state of death are children of the devil. They do not do righteousness and they do not love their brother. Cain is then said to be 'of that wicked one' and slew his brother. With the exception of only a remnant the whole human race had corrupted its way and filled the earth with violence by Genesis 6. Why? Paul explains it in Ephesians 2:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:1-5)

Notice first of all that Paul places everybody in this text as he says, "we ALL had our conversation (manner of living) in times past." What were we doing? Paul tells us plainly, "you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience." This is Paul telling us that while we were dead in sin we were alive unto the Prince of the Power of the Air (Satan) and his disobedient spirit was working IN us. We were dead (separated) from God and alive unto Satan. As Jesus said it, we were children of the Devil and we did the deeds that the devil does. Hate is evidence of this. Many people may resist this notion, but John already told us that a person who hates his brother is a murderer no matter if they killed anyone or not. We then refer back to Jesus:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

We see then there are two prime and inescapable characteristics of Satan found in man: 1. hate 2. lying

These are NOT learned behaviors. They are natural to unregenerate man. No one has to be taught to hate or to lie, it comes as natural to unfallen man as anything. This is why we have to train our kids NOT to do all these things. Again, Paul tells us that the unregenerate are BY NATURE children of wrath. No matter how much sin would exist in the world it could never change a person's inherent constitutional nature from neutral to sinner. That constitutional change came by one man (Adam) when by one man's disobedience many were constituted sinners. This is why when we are Baptized by the Spirit into Christ we are constituted righteous. These are the two men that dictate what nature a person is of. They that are in Adam suffer the change of nature brought about by him choosing to enslave himself in obedience to the Serpent (Satan). By one man The Sin entered the world and The Death by The Sin. This is not sin the fruit, but Sin the Root. The dynamic of Sin that was in Satan entered the human race and is evident on every hand.

We have to believe what God has said about man's condition or we will not seek Him for the cure. As a student of Patristic's (Early church Father's), Josephus, and also the Rabbinic Sages, I can say categorically that many New Covenant truths were lost during the first few centuries of the Church. the focus was on issues such as the Trinity and the Nature of Christ, etc. It only got worse until the Reformation when things started to come back around. There are many articles here on SI I have written in years past along these lines. I do not go to the Father's, Josephus or the Rabbinic Sages for counsel, but for historical data and even then I do so cautiously. Only the scriptures are authoritative.

And God has indeed used men that did not believe in Original Sin. I do not say that condescendingly. And anyone that has known me for very long knows I am not afraid to challenge the status-quo. Although my views on subjects are more orthodox than they appear if I am allowed to explain them thoroughly, which can rarely happen when were typing with writer cramp. From my view we have to start by agreeing with God. Man is not just a poor sinner that has made a few bad choices, man is shot through with Sin and is utterly bent towards doing evil unless he is restrained by God with a multitude of measures. Since God thrust Adam from the Garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever as a sinner, he has employed many measures to contain his sinful nature. For example:

1. He strives with man
2. He gave man to work by the sweat of his face and woman's pain was increased in child bearing
3. He gave the seasons to limit man's means and opportunities
4. After the flood man's years reduced slowly down to max 120 years
5. Death penalty employed
6. God confounded the languages
7. God gave the law at Sinai

Just to name the major ones that come to mind. God had to deal with a people that were bent towards rebellion, hate and lies.

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (Genesis 8:21)

Why is man's heart evil from it's youth? Because unregenerate men are of their father the Devil and must be born from above (Genesis 3:3). They have his spirit of disobedience working in them to do his good pleasure. Fallen man has stage 4 Sin with one foot in the grave and one on a banana peeling. If we won't believe what God has said about man's condition, what is the point of even seeking to be born from above? Moreover, we are told categorically that men either bear thorns and briars to be rejected and burned or they bear fruit and are blessed. (Hebrews 6:7-8) There is no middle ground where men are neutral. There are no maple trees (as it were). It's either thorns or fruit. The axe is now laid to the root of the trees and any that do not bring forth good fruit are hewn down and cast into the fire. It is a new day. Christ has come. We need to accept the sentence and diagnosis and go to Him for the cure. IF any man be IN Christ he/she is a new creature, the old things are passed away and behold all are made new. Hope that helps explain a bit more of my view. Blessings.






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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/9 7:18Profile





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