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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by TMK on 2012/11/7 12:58:51

Croref wrote:

"Jesus, as no other, was full of Grace and Truth. That position in the Father, I feel quite sure, carries with it something special insofar as God withheld nothing from Him, according to His will."

So in other words, he DID have a special advantage ;)





Yes and one that required of Him what could not be required of Adam, i,e., protect the "Word" of Glory His flesh clothed.

In Adam's case, the "Word" of Glory resided in the Tree of Life". Eternal "Life" as God designed/purposed to be was in Himself. cf John 17:3.

 2012/11/7 17:15Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: RobertW

Hi RobertW

I am greatly Appreciating so many of your post.

I have some questions ??

RE: RobertW wrote ///I hope to take this up a bit by coupling these comments with my last post. When we use the term 'flesh' it is the Greek word sarx and comes down in 2 primary forms; fallen and unfallen. A human being with a sin nature is tempted from 'within'. They are in Adam and under his head. So this person has effectively the flesh+sin or a sinful human nature. Jesus had only the flesh and did not have a sin nature. He was tempted (tested) from 'without'. This is important to keep clear.///

This sounds good but what scriptures are being used to come to this conclusion ??

I must say that I have disscussed these thoughts with tons of people and have studied both sides, I personally am not convinced that men have a sin nature, (the phrase is not even in the bible) but what you wrote is by far the best defense that I have ever read,very well wrote and I must humbly say that it causes me to think, so please do not be offended by my questions.

Was Eve not tempted from within before the Fall ??

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

" And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes"(Lust of the eyes)

had the serpent said anything about the fruit being good for food or looking pleasant ?, was this part of the temptation not from within ?, Was this anything other than what causes us to sin ?, a natural God given appetite and propentesey that breaks the laws of God in order to satisfy itself. If there was no Law there would be no temptation to break that law thus no sin. But since there was a law than an inward decision had to be made, will I listen to God or will I listen to the flesh the appetite and propentesey.

Even though the serpent outwardly enticed Eve the realm of temptation worked within,(Lust was within eve before she was guilty of sin)(when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin) I do not see how this is much different for us today in that most temptations or enticements start from without but yet the realm of temptation and decision are made within.

Adam and eve where naked yet it was not sin to them, A 2 year old can run around naked and yet there is no guilt no sin, But now if you or I run around naked we are sinful perverts because we hold a law within that says thou shalt not.

RE: RobertW wrote ///Jesus was tempted from 'without'. When He was in the wilderness He faced the Devil. Why? Because He had no inward compulsion to rebel against His Father. Notice how this plays out. Jesus knew His fast was for a set time. He knew He was the Son of God and was capable of doing just about anything He wanted to. Satan tried to tempt Him to take matters into His own hands and use the powers available to Him rather than wait on God. He refused to do anything 'in the flesh'; that is to say, He refused to move in any other revelation than every Word that is proceeding from the mouth of God. Did He have a natural desire to eat? Absolutely. Just like Abraham had a desire to have a son. The difference is that Jesus waited on the Father and Abraham hearkened to Sarah.///

I have talked with many people and even started a thread here on si about if Jesus was tempted from within or from without, Most everyone seems to agree from without, But I must ask what is the biblical evidence for this speculation ? How can it be temptation for the Son of God who knows clearly the intentions and motivations and history of the Devil to be tempted by the devil if he was in form externally ??
But rather if the temptation was in the realm of the mind as is with us,(an inward spirtual battle) we all can relate)

Re: RobertW wrote ///Same with Adam. God had already determined to make man in His image and likeness. When God seemed to tarry, Satan came along and tempted Adam to take matters into His own hands. This is why we are told to 'wait upon the Lord'. Adam sought to fulfill God's plans in a forbidden way and plunged the human race into total ruin. All of these issues tie together. God has a plan and means of fulfilling His plan. He knows our natural needs and has a means of fulfilling them. Satan comes along and attempts to lure us to fulfill a good desire in a sinful way. Simply put, Satan want's human beings living by every word that proceeds from his mouth rather than God's mouth. Blessings.///

this paraghraph I found to be extremely insightful and very edifying

Brother, I must humbly admit you have me thinking, Good Post











 2012/11/7 23:43Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Sree

Hi Sree

Somethings to think about

RE: Sree wrote ///Bible also says that Jesus came in the LIKENESS of Human flesh. It does not say that he came in Human flesh.///

The Bible does not say any where that Jesus came in the LIKENESS of Human flesh. But it does say "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"

our flesh (sarx) is called sinful because it is the vessel by which we have sinned. once we come into understanding (of good and evil)(age of accountability)and we make a judgment of right and wrong and we fail our own judgment at this point (rom 7:9) guilt (sin is imputed) enters into the soul and our flesh, than our flesh becomes considered sinful,(at this point we die of innocence).
Jesus never sinned, thus His Flesh could not be called sinful.

RE: Sree wrote ///That is why if you look into my previous posts I always use this word likeness of human flesh. Which means there is a difference, obviously because he was not born of the seed of Adam. ///

Did not Jesus called Himself the Son of man(adam) ???

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the (((Son of man))) hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

Matthew 11:19
The (((Son of man))) came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children

Matthew 12:8
For the (((Son of man))) is Lord even of the sabbath day

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the (((Son of man))) be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I could go on but their is almost a hundred more verses that clearly say the same thing.









 2012/11/8 10:22Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: It is my belief that Jesus had no "special advantage" over us that assisted him in his sinlessness, other than he was able to control his temptations through willpower and obedience to conscience. And while I do believe this to be true, nobody has provided me with an answer as to HOW he was able to do it. we know He did it, but how?

What is willpower and conscience, it’s the Soul, if you do a study of the bible of the word heart you’ll find that Soul and heart are the same things.. Lets have a quick skim

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:5

Imagination and thoughts = the heart

Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. Gen 20:5

Integrity of my heart = conscience

Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. 1 Cor 7:37

Decreed in his heart that he will = Will is in the heart.

Quote: I must say that I have disscussed these thoughts with tons of people and have studied both sides, I personally am not convinced that men have a sin nature, (the phrase is not even in the bible) but what you wrote is by far the best defense that I have ever read,very well wrote and I must humbly say that it causes me to think, so please do not be offended by my questions.

If you do a search in the King James Bible you will not find the word “raptured” but most of us believe that at some time in the future we will be raptured. So let’s not get hung up on phrases.

When they speak about a “Sin Nature” they really mean a heart that’s prone to sin. Look at what Jesus said “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” Matt 15:19

The bible tells us “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer 17:9

Sin Nature = The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.

So the difference between Jesus and us is that his heart was pure and full of love, he truly loved God with all his heart and that love motivated him to obey and do the will of the Father.

While out heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, that heart puts self before everyone else and everything else, that’s why we need the law to expose what’s in us. After that heart has been changed and it loves God totally and loves others fully then we have no need of the law because there is no law against love..

Was your heart changed at conversion, is there still a wicked way in your heart? Of course there is because we don’t get it all at conversion.


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/8 17:53Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
This sounds good but what scriptures are being used to come to this conclusion ??

I must say that I have disscussed these thoughts with tons of people and have studied both sides, I personally am not convinced that men have a sin nature, (the phrase is not even in the bible) but what you wrote is by far the best defense that I have ever read,very well wrote and I must humbly say that it causes me to think, so please do not be offended by my questions.



The subject of original sin has been discussed at length here in the forums where I have participated in the past. It is impossible in my view to understand regeneration until we understand original sin or congenital sin. I will offer one passage in passing:

For as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. (Romans 5:19 YLT)

It would be a tremendous effort to rehash constitutional sin all again, but I wish to share a link of a dear brother that participated in many of these discussions. Well worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxACfxxcZec


Quote:
Even though the serpent outwardly enticed Eve the realm of temptation worked within,(Lust was within eve before she was guilty of sin)(when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin) I do not see how this is much different for us today in that most temptations or enticements start from without but yet the realm of temptation and decision are made within.



I have a theory here that ties in with some other conversations we have had on SI in the past dealing with Charles Finney. I think he made the mistake of relying on his own inward experience of temptation, etc., rather than following closely the revelation of scripture. I believe Finney was regenerated, which would have reversed the effect of original sin in his life and left him with basic human temptation. Sinners are moving in the law of Sin; that is to say, an inward constitutional law that rebels against the will of God for rebellions sake. This is why Paul said, "when the commandment came sin revived and I died." This is why the commandment that was supposed to bring life brought death. It brought Sin (the dynamis) to the surface. The Law gave man's sinful constitution something to rebel against. If God reverses this phenomena so that we now rejoice and are edified and gratified by doing God's will, then we risk assuming this is the situation for ALL people- sinner and saint alike. I think this is a bad mistake. We have to trust the revelation of scripture as we follow through. Jesus told the people hat they must be born again (John 3:3). Why? Because they are otherwise of their father the Devil and the lusts of their father they will do.

Quote:
I have talked with many people and even started a thread here on si about if Jesus was tempted from within or from without, Most everyone seems to agree from without, But I must ask what is the biblical evidence for this speculation ?



It is simply that Satan himself came to tempt (test) Jesus. It is no more complicated than that. Satan himself came to tempt Eve. Had he never entered the picture there would likely never had been any real temptation for Eve. She was beguiled. Natural desires were not sufficient in themselves to lure Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Had she had a sinful nature her own heart that the scripture defines as "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9) would have led her to the tree in time.

So I think we have to keep our eye on the fact that the Born Again will not experience the world in the same way as the Unregenerate. Finney, in my view, assumed that because he no longer had an inward propensity to sin, that nobody in the world had the propensity. As for me, I can tell you the time when I was changed into a New Creature. All of my desires changed and my whole perspective of past and present events was from a totally different point of view. Just a thumbnail sketch, but hopefully you will give a look to the video. Blessings.



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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/8 18:44Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I wish to return to the original question, "My spirit shall not always strive with man."

There is another aspect to God ceasing to strive with man that we cannot overlook and it is that point when man chooses to truly submit to God. th Lord's hand is heavy upon a person, He is goading them and convincing them of sin, righteousness and judgment to come with a powerful effect. He is pricking the hearts. This is the operation of the Holy Spirit as He strives with man to repent and turn to Christ in genuine faith.

However, when the person finally submits to Christ in such a way that God can believe him/her, the Holy Spirit leaves off with the heavy hand, goading and pricking, etc; and POURS out into the heart love (Romans 5:5) and joy and the rest of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. (Galatians 5) This is why the old timers used to refer to God's dealings with man in 4 states:

A. The Careless Sinner
B. The Awakened Sinner
C. The Convicted Sinner
D. The Regenerated Believer

A. The “careless sinner” can simply “care-less” about their soul’s salvation and need for God. They are opposed to their own salvation. Some will get hostile or even violent at the proposal of being saved. Upon hearing about God their mind and conscience is stirred which is very troubling. They will most often avoid this state. Sinners are very creative in finding ways to ignore their need for God and press Him as far back in their minds as possible. They do not like to retain God in their knowledge and prefer to sin unabated (unrestrained and unhindered). These people are enemies of both God and themselves. Some people are subtle about it and simply ignore God and believe they are ‘good people.’ Yet others may be in some form of false religion. No matter which category they fall into- they are quite careless about their souls. They are deceived by Satan, taken captive at his will and are fearlessly confident in their sinful condition. They feel no need to consider the vast number of ways in which God is trying to gain their attention at any given moment. They ignore the sight of a church. They skip past Christian TV and radio when skimming channels. They ignore Christian related billboards and bumper-stickers. More than that, they do always resist the Holy Ghost that is using these and many other means to arrest their attention. As Jesus told Saul on the road to Damascus, they do always kick against the goads (pricks). God uses means to alter their direction in live towards Himself- but they resist to their own hurt. They beat the drums as in Tophet to drown the screams; that is, they surround themselves with worldly distractions that bolster their deception and hasten their damnation. God often has to use radical measures to snap a sinner out of a careless state.

B. The “awakened sinner” is someone that has been shocked into at least ‘considering’ their need for God. This happens at times when tragedy strikes such as a loved one passing away or being suddenly killed. It happens when the individual themselves suffer some calamity such as being diagnosed with cancer or falling into financial crisis. It can happen at times of great distress and fear such as the events of 9-11 or the Great Tsunami Disaster. It may also happen at times when sudden danger is upon them such as a Tornado Warning. The job of the minister is to awaken sinners by the truth of the Gospel. The Gospel message pours light into the darkness so that the lost can feel their condition. The Holy Spirit works to convince the person of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. Occasionally God sovereignly shakes a sinner from slumber with prophetic dreams or supernatural dealings (Genesis 41:8, Daniel 4:5, etc.).


C. The “convicted sinner” is a person who after hearing a Gospel message and having been dealt with greatly by the Holy Spirit is convinced of their need for God and the Gospel. They are convinced they are a sinner and need to repent. They are convinced that they need to trust in Christ and turn everything completely over Him. To a lesser or greater degree they understand the Gospel. They are familiar more or less with God and His word- at least enough to be born again. The Holy Spirit has brought them to that place where they are trembling in awe of God and are halting between two opinions (will I serve God or will I serve sin). They are at the crossroads- and must choose whom they will serve. At this time the Holy Spirit is in the role of Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus dealt with the rich young ruler- the Holy Spirit, in the same fashion, is dealing with this person. He is showing them in their ‘minds-eye’ what they must submit to Him in order to be saved and “have treasure in Heaven.” This is a “one-on-one” with the Holy Ghost. This is where the great striving and wrestling happens. The Holy Spirit knows what is standing between Him and them and He is showing it to them. The convicted sinner is made to know exactly what he/she is trading for their immortal soul.

D. The Regenerated Believer

When the striving and resisting ends and the heart surrenders in such a way that God will believe us- the Holy Spirit will come in and pour in the oil and the wine. Sadly, so few never make it past conviction of sin. They pray a prayer and are told they are saved. But when a person gets truly 'saved' the joy of the Lord supplants the feelings of hopelessness and the love of Christ is poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that has been given to us (Romans 5:5). The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God. We cry out from within as it were, ABBA Father. While Sin reigned the heart was burned in affection for sin and this world- but in with Christ came what the old timers called, "The Expulsive Power of a New Affection." The love of Christ in our hearts- expelled our love for sin and this world. We gained an all new affection for things above and not of things on the earth. We see the wonder of the great love where with He loved us and His goodness that had long been leading us to repentance.

We receive life- eternal life. We are grafted into the vine. We are New Creatures in Christ. We come under a new head (Jesus Christ)- and are dead to Sin and alive to God. God takes up residence in us and we 'begin' in the Spirit. We no longer live 'striving' with God, but are led of the Spirit as the true sons of God.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/8 19:08Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: RobertW

Hi RobertW, rather I am in agreement or not, excelant post, It has me thinking, some quick questions as I meditate on the rest

RobertW wrote ///It is impossible in my view to understand regeneration until we understand original sin or congenital sin. I will offer one passage in passing:///

Would you also believe that Paris Reidhead understood nothing about regeneration also ?

RobertW wrote ///It is simply that Satan himself came to tempt (test) Jesus. It is no more complicated than that. Satan himself came to tempt Eve. Had he never entered the picture there would likely never had been any real temptation for Eve. She was beguiled. Natural desires were not sufficient in themselves to lure Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.///

But who than tempted Lucifer to cause his fall ??

I apperciate the thought provoking answers brother

Edit: I feel uncomfortable with how I asked//Would you also believe that Paris Reidhead understood nothing about regeneration also //" I just mean to say that I am not convinced that one has to hold an orthodox view on original sin or congenital sin to understand regeneration.








 2012/11/8 20:34Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
RobertW wrote ///It is impossible in my view to understand regeneration until we understand original sin or congenital sin. I will offer one passage in passing:///

Would you also believe that Paris Reidhead understood nothing about regeneration also ?



I'm not a close follower of Reidhead, but I have listened to many of his messages. If he did not believe in Original Sin then in my view he would not understand regeneration biblically. That is not to say that he may not have many good things to say, it is just that his approach to regeneration would be on a much different order than men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon, Moody, etc. He would be more on the order of Finney and Pelagius and out of step with an overwhelming number of Protestants past and present. Both Finney and Pelagius have been greatly marginalized and worse for their unorthodox views. But, as I mentioned before I believe I have a good theory as to why Finney held the views.

Quote:
But who than tempted Lucifer to cause his fall ??



Lucifer was in a unique spot as the Anointed Cherub 'that Covers'. This basically means that he was the greatest of all created beings. He knew this. He thought upon this. And then he bagan to corrupt himself with the notion that he could exercise his own will rather than God's will. We have to keep in mind that he pioneered rebellion; that is to say, he is the father of lies and is the father of rebellion. There was none before him. We have a clue in Ezekiel 28:17, "Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you." Pride is the snare and condemnation of the Devil. Pride is a sense of excessive self-worth. In his free moral condition, He saw God and the worship He received continually, and apparently considered equality with God a thing to be grasped. In other words, he considered equality with God a prize to be gained and retained.

Now, keep in mind that the TRUE nature of God is one of absolute humility. This is not what Satan desired. Satan corrupted his wisdom for the sake of his splendor. He worshipped himself by obeying himself. He wanted to be worshipped as God is worshipped and he started it by doing it himself. He then worked on a third of the angels to get them to do it. This played on out again in the wilderness when he wanted Jesus (the Second Person in the Godhead) to worship him.

All indicators are that Satan corrupted himself and became the father of that same corruption. He is where the buck stops. He sowed the same self-will seed thought into Eve- it conceived and brought forth sin. The thoughts themselves stirred up desire in her. Now there is a clash of wills- her will was being influenced by and moved by this beguilement. She was in the transgression. This is why we are told to cast down imaginations and every thought that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. The longer a person sits around mulling over something, the more it stirs the mind with a desire that longs to be satiated. The more this goes on the more dangerous the situation becomes.

Christ's death on the cross revealed what it would take to be like God. If Eve and Adam could have looked through a telescope to Calvary they would have seen what it would be like to 'be as God'; instead they listened to the lies of Satan and became like him. He wanted an aspect of God that Jesus did not consider a thing to be grasped. In other words, Satan is going to burn in hell for desiring to be something Christ willingly laid down. That is a staggering thing to comprehend. Jesus had been there, seen it, and done it and yet did not consider it a thing to be grasped. It is that simple in my view. Satan tempted himself to want the power and glory that belonged to God but wanted nothing to do with his real attributes. He coveted God's glory rather than desiring earnestly the best things. He saw it and he coveted it. Jesus on the other hand was a foot washer that loved His Father and to do His Father's will. He had it, but didn't grasp it.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/8 23:17Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: murrcolr

Hi murrcolr

excelant thoughts

where does compassion proceed from ??



















 2012/11/8 23:48Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: RobertW

Hi RobertW

RobertW wrote ///It is impossible in my view to understand regeneration until we understand original sin or congenital sin. I will offer one passage in passing:///

Is there any evidence that the early church fathers before Augustine held to the this belief ?

RobertW wrote ///I'm not a close follower of Reidhead, but I have listened to many of his messages. If he did not believe in Original Sin then in my view he would not understand regeneration biblically ///

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgsZv1JyJE

RobertW wrote ///That is not to say that he may not have many good things to say, it is just that his approach to regeneration would be on a much different order than men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon, Moody, etc.///

Luther and calvin got there understanding from the writings of Augustine that is clear when reading there own works, all of the others mentioned studied heavely the works of calvin and luther.

I do believe that their are men of this tradition whom are used of God.

But This is another problem I have with this doctrine, my understanding is that Augustine brought forth the view of Just war into the church and also death to the heratick in which brought about the inquisition, infant Baptism was deeply rooted into the church because of this doctrine (because Augustine believed in regenerational Baptism and that all infants are born sinful thus infant baptism)
History recordes that often times Those whom held strongly to infant baptism persecuted those whom believed in adult baptism, As I read and study about Calvin and Luther I find a lack of compassion for there fellow man that I do not find to be biblical. The history I find of the latter end of Luther I feel to be highly disturbing.

Yet I also see another line in history one that was considered heratick and persecuted by the mentioned line It is a trail of blood, people whom believed in not Baptizing infants

Have to go to bed, I want to say I do not want to misrepresent any one of history and am open to being corrected with facts but What I Read of History Is honestly extremely disturbing to me and another reason that I question this doctrine.

Great thoughts everyone has me really thinking





 2012/11/9 0:28Profile





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