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Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by twayneb on 2012/11/12 5:14:32

Croref: I did not mean to drop a comment and run, so to speak. It is deer season here in Missouri, and I have been busy trying to lay in a years supply of meat for my family. I am not sure that I need to respond as the discussion has moved, but I wanted to reply to your post.
___________________________

No worries, twayneb! I wish I could do what you are doing for meat.

You wrote this that immediately stopped me in my tracks from going further in my desire to reply to you:

". . . . Before the rebirth, man's spirit is dead toward God."

If you believe that then obviously you have a reason Abel desired to please God__to the degree he gave God his best? Abel was but the first fallen man to do so. When you think you have all your bases covered for a good explanation, I have a list of others I want to ask the same of you and then we can move on with the rest of your sincere reply__for which I sincerely thank you.

OMT, If as you say that when we are born again we are in right relationship to God and that relationship secures us to Him, why do we have to overcome anything? Did not Jesus "do it all"? Is not repentance a necessary element in your thinking?


 2012/11/12 19:07Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:5-6

Man is flesh and he can only give birth to flesh, Adam can only give brith to Adam.

So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit 1 Cor 15:45

The last Adam Christ is a life-giving Spirit and gives birth to the Spirit.

Men need to be born twice to enter the Kingdom of God


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/13 5:38Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:


by murrcolr on 2012/11/13 2:38:17

Men need to be born twice to enter the Kingdom of God
________________________

Kingdom of God???? Is that what is being discussed?

 2012/11/13 9:09Profile









 Re: My spirit shall not always strive with man

Quote:
Man is flesh and he can only give birth to flesh, Adam can only give birth to Adam.

So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit 1 Cor 15:45

The last Adam Christ is a life-giving Spirit and gives birth to the Spirit.

Men need to be born twice to enter the Kingdom of God. murrcoir




I agree brother. Christ became a life giving Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is our spirits that are born again. The fact that the first man Adam became a living soul should tell us everything we need to know about the nature of salvation. The soul is not born again. Neither is the physical body. It is the spirit that is born of the Spirit [John 3:6] according to the same life that is in Christ, Who became a life giving spirit. If we can really make the connection here and believe that the soul is not born again then we stand a reasonable chance of understanding that the soul [mind, emotions & will] must become subject to the new life in our renewed spirits and only insofar as we walk by the spirit are we fully saved.

 2012/11/13 11:15
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

This is a matter in Paul's mind of dispare in the flesh so great that he feared for his very life.

This also is a truth of what salvation is about. We are saved in spirit, we are being saved in our soul/mind and will be completely saved in the resurrection of this body of flesh.

He who has delivered His people, saved them by Grace, (delivered), who (doth)constantly deliver and keep, renewing our minds to the help and protection of our souls in renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ, will (yet deliver) do so in the future till the final great deliverance comes and all His redeemed people will be gathered home.

Intering the Kingdom now and seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus by our born again spirit which is now the Spirit of Christ, already delivered. Sons of God.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

"doth deliver"; Our soul/minds being renewed now and into all eternity, our souls in the body being saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So we have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit in our souls forever and the future body of Life renewed to a body Just like His on resurrection day being kept from the second death of the ungodly in the Great White Throne Judgement.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/11/13 14:10Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
No worries, twayneb! I wish I could do what you are doing for meat.

You wrote this that immediately stopped me in my tracks from going further in my desire to reply to you:

". . . . Before the rebirth, man's spirit is dead toward God."

If you believe that then obviously you have a reason Abel desired to please God__to the degree he gave God his best? Abel was but the first fallen man to do so. When you think you have all your bases covered for a good explanation, I have a list of others I want to ask the same of you and then we can move on with the rest of your sincere reply__for which I sincerely thank you.



We relate to God in the spirit, not in the flesh. God is spirit, and they that worship Him do so in spirit and in truth. It is the spirit of man that is born again, not the soul (I define this as mind, will, emotions) or the body. It is the outworking of a spirit that is now alive toward God. Romans 8:10 tells us that if Christ be in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Before we were born again, we were unable to have righteousness (we might say right relationship) with God. It is as though we were dead to God. But when we are born again, we are now in right relationship with God. We are now alive unto God.

Paul speaks in Romans 7 about this very concept. When he was under the law (before his conversion), he desired to please God. He tried to please God. But he was doing so out of his flesh and he found himself utterly incapable. The good he desired to do, he did not do, and the evil that he wished not to do, he found himself doing. The solution? The work of Jesus Christ.

But remember, it is only the spirit of a man that is born again. We still live in a body and have a mind, a will, and emotions that are unregenerate, that are still corrupt from the fall. Refer again to Romans 8:10. It is a battle of flesh and spirit that we fight. This is why Paul says so much about the war between the two.

Yes, repentance is important, but not because each time we fail we need to repent in order to appropriate God's forgiveness one more time. Repentance is not found in saying I am sorry, but it is found in turning from the thing that we were doing. I have repented of a great many things since I was born again. God has dealt with me, and I have responded in obedience and changed course.

As I write the topic broadens, and I have to stop shortly, but we must realize that I am not lost because I miss the mark. But if I do not repent and I harden my heart against God, I may very will reject my salvation, from which Hebrews tells me there is no recourse. As well, sin opens the door for the enemy to come in and establish strongholds in my life. As well, a born again man does not desire to sin, but rather desires to live a holy life.

Gotta Go
Blessings.


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Travis

 2012/11/13 16:02Profile
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by twayneb on 2012/11/13 13:02:15

Quote:
No worries, twayneb! I wish I could do what you are doing for meat.

You wrote this that immediately stopped me in my tracks from going further in my desire to reply to you:

". . . . Before the rebirth, man's spirit is dead toward God."

If you believe that then obviously you have a reason Abel desired to please God__to the degree he gave God his best? Abel was but the first fallen man to do so. When you think you have all your bases covered for a good explanation, I have a list of others I want to ask the same of you and then we can move on with the rest of your sincere reply__for which I sincerely thank you.



We relate to God in the spirit, not in the flesh. God is spirit, and they that worship Him do so in spirit and in truth. It is the spirit of man that is born again, not the soul (I define this as mind, will, emotions) or the body. It is the outworking of a spirit that is now alive toward God. Romans 8:10 tells us that if Christ be in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Before we were born again, we were unable to have righteousness (we might say right relationship) with God. It is as though we were dead to God. But when we are born again, we are now in right relationship with God. We are now alive unto God.
________________________________

I am not speaking of being lost or any such thing. I did ask about Abel you have not addressed.. Was he not alive to God??

 2012/11/13 16:07Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Ge 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Abel's offering is proof that Jesus Christ was not born again in him. If I went to God with a slain lamb and offered its blood for forgiveness of sin, because of the true Lamb of God's blood shed now being the only offering for sin, once, God would not accept the blood of an animal to bring forth salvation. We know from scripture that Adam, Cain spoke direct with God and Able I assume also spoke with God.

Who put it in Abel's heart to kill a spotless lamb and with its shed blood, the offering would have respect with God. Scripture does not say. But with Abel's offering, it pointing to the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ and His shed blood for the sin of the whole world and giving salvation to whom the Father gives to Jesus of which none could come unless the Father draws them to The Cross. So I can only by faith believe that God giving the first knowledge of "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin". The mystery of Christ in the believer hid from all until it was revealed to Paul to give to usward the mystery revealed of, "Christ in you the hope of glory".
This giving imputed righteousness to Abel, just like Abraham, but not Christ being made by the Father righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and redemption which Jesus is now made unto us.

Abel knew God but was not born again, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father, making us the offspring of the Father, the son's of God in Christ Jesus who is the Seed (sperma) of God in us, sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. This beginning of the new process 53 days after the death of the Son of God, salvation by Grace through Faith. Not by works and the blood of animals

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/11/14 3:29Profile
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Posts: 334


 Re:

by Christinyou on 2012/11/14 0:29:16

Ge 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Abel's offering is proof that Jesus Christ was not born again in him. If I went to God with a slain lamb and offered its blood for forgiveness of sin, because of the true Lamb of God's blood shed now being the only offering for sin, once, God would not accept the blood of an animal to bring forth salvation. We know from scripture that Adam, Cain spoke direct with God and Able I assume also spoke with God.
____________________________________

Proof, my Brother? W=hat proof do we need except we know Jesus had to die and resurrect before anyone could ever be born again. That said, lets look for another reason Abel sacrificed as he did.

Quote:
Who put it in Abel's heart to kill a spotless lamb and with its shed blood, the offering would have respect with God.



No one. In this is Abel seen of God to be like Himself Who would eventually give His best__all that he had to give and give it in the same "loving" way, i.e., there was nothing else of Abel to give. In other words, God saw Himself, His Love, in Abel, expressed as it could only be expressed__done so without any kind of indwelling we might think would be necessary. Extend this out to also be the reason why God chose anyone in whom He called[s]. One might even say these men became "men of renown".

 2012/11/14 6:01Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Who put it in Abel's heart to kill a spotless lamb and with its shed blood, the offering would have respect with God.



Maybe he saw Adam do it

Quote: In this is Abel seen of God to be like Himself Who would eventually give His best__all that he had to give and give it in the same "loving" way, i.e., there was nothing else of Abel to give.

What???

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Ahhhhh By Faith


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/15 13:08Profile





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