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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/11 6:27:27

Quote:
I don't get it. Sorry.



What is being lost in this conversation is the distinction between the old testament and New Covenant possibilities. There were saints in the Old Testament, but they did not have the promises of the New Covenant.


Here is your error:

Quote:
The New Covenant brings to the table exceeding great and precious promises whereby we can become partakers of the Divine Nature. . .



By the new birth, WE ARE partakers of the Divine Nature and. . . what's more are we given to learn by it and to protect it just as Jesus learned it and protected it. On this is the covenant established. "Let this Mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus".

No one in the OT was given that responsibility. No one.

 2012/11/11 9:36Profile
Croref
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Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/11 6:34:19

Quote:
Not in a heartbeat can you reconcile them with your pronouncement. They were either on one side or the other. You said so.



For one, the paragraph you quoted is out of it's context. I didn't say that one is one or the other, John did. I am merely agreeing with what he said. I believe John is right. Do you?


That being the case, you used John to make your point. . did you not?

 2012/11/11 9:39Profile
Croref
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Posts: 334


 Re:


by RobertW on 2012/11/11 6:34:19


Abraham, Enoch and the rest of the Old Testament believers were all in Adam, but they died in faith- not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.




Totally irrelevant.

 2012/11/11 9:42Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:

the nature in Ephesians 2:3 is speaking of the natural course 'the past walk' as 2:2 as does all the verses that use the word nature in scripture



I understand that Paul is speaking of our past walk. In no way am I now or have I suggested in these threads that it is the walk of the Born Again Saint of God. Paul is dealing with what we were as sinners.

Quote:
Where the Jews sinless by their nature?? As Ephesians 2:3 this verse is in referense of their natural course our natural course.



Returning now to my long post where I explained my view of sin nature you will recall I spoke often about the children motif. By nature children of wrath is a statement that through the use of Children (τέκνα) emphasizes the connection by birth; see on John 1:12. By nature (φύσει) accords with children, implying what; is innate. That man is born with a sinful nature, and that God and sin are essentially antagonistic, are conceded on all hands. (Vincent)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/11 9:43Profile
RobertW
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Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Abraham, Enoch and the rest of the Old Testament believers were all in Adam, but they died in faith- not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



Totally irrelevant.



Your dismissive attitude does not lend well to a fruitful conversation. I must ask, are you really trying to reckon what what I am saying or are you wanting to argue? I have no desire whatsoever to participate in an arguement. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/11 9:44Profile
proudpapa
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 Re:

///it’s me I am the Flesh///

 2012/11/11 9:53Profile
proudpapa
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 Re:

///it’s me I am the Flesh///

 2012/11/11 9:53Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
No one in the OT was given that responsibility. No one.



I never placed the responsibility of being born again on OT saints or on anyone else. John 3:3 is merely given as a statement of fact. We cannot in of ourselves make ourselves born again. We can only cooperate with God as He deals with us.

In other conversations we have had you will remember I have suggested that the OT Saints are the souls of just men made perfect in Hebrews 12:23. That is when their change came in my view. They were not born from above as they walked the earth, they walked in the revelation they had and were faithful. They were not in Christ or crucified with Christ, etc. Their possibilities were far less than ours. John is speaking to us in 1 John, not the Old Testament saints. The New Testament is not retroactive. I think we agree wholeheartedly there. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/11 10:15Profile
Croref
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Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/11 6:44:56

Quote:
Abraham, Enoch and the rest of the Old Testament believers were all in Adam, but they died in faith- not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Totally irrelevant.



Your dismissive attitude does not lend well to a fruitful conversation. I must ask, are you really trying to reckon what what I am saying or are you wanting to argue? I have no desire whatsoever to participate in an arguement. Blessings.
I cannot reckon what you are saying and have been trying to give you my reasons you don't have answers for but instead invoke the opinions of whomever, I don't know, but I recognize the words and phraseology as stemming from 'critical' sources.

However, no. To the contrary, Brother. However, we cannot dismiss the fact that this is an argument and a needed one that we might all understand better what the issues are surrounding the new covenant relationship with God for which the old one that prohibited those who died with only the promise, longed for. The fact they were ALL faithful to God however, born in Adam, proves the point that man, on his own could achieve of God __short of the RIGHTEOUSNESS necessary for reconciliation. Only the Blood of Jesus could could achieve that. However, God's favor, blessings, protection was all there for those of a contrite spirit who were faithful, some more than others for His Divine purposes placed in those He trusted to carry the responsibility appointed them. That was the extent of the old covenant in a small nut shell..

The new covenant is a different ball game that carries with it the very Nature of the Godhead onto the playing field that by it men who are in it 'game' function from a source once outside themselves but is now in themselves.

I hope this clears up a few things between us.

 2012/11/11 10:15Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The new covenant is a different ball game that carries with it the very Nature of the Godhead onto the playing field that by it men who are in it 'game' function from a source once outside themselves but is now in themselves.

I hope this clears up a few things between us.



I think we are saying the same things my friend. See my last post. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/11 10:17Profile





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