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 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/10 19:25:28

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
why be so adamant about using a phrase that is no where found in scripture, KJV ,greek or hebrew ?



The term sin nature is based in part on Ephesians 2:3b; ...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. It is actually the term employed by the NIV translators to translate sarx in Galatians 5:17, "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." This was likely done to keep folks from thinking that the trouble is our flesh (body). That would be dualism.

Quote:
why add the word nature to mans sinfulness



Because man is not a sinner simply because he/she sins; they sin because they are sinners. They are by nature children of wrath. By one man The Sin entered the world and by one man's sin we were all constituted sinners. In contrast, by one man's obedience many will be constituted righteous. That is to say, in the same way that men were by nature rebellious children of wrath IN Adam- they can be by nature obedient loving children of God IN Christ. Hope that helps. Blessings.


Which only means the redeemed of the Lord will face a greater judgement for his sins. So, "Let every man examine himself . . ."

 2012/11/11 7:11Profile
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 Re:

by twayneb on 2012/11/11 4:10:56

Beautifully put and G'mornin, twayneb!

For some reason that escapes me, folk refuse to view flesh and vanity as being complimentary when coming to grips with the issue of overcoming. When born of God they become something outside us. Let me say this and then please comment:
Our old nature was not influenced by sin__our souls were. How? Through our flesh, by temptation and untoward affinities. Our natures being devoid of God made us to be our god. Our souls were in complete union with our flesh and vanity. Our "I love you's" always went out from us with a hook in it. We chose as we saw fit but always looking out for our interests. I was not a "child of wrath" until you crossed me or I had to "deny myself". BTW: I was a compassionate man__when it suited me. So what is the problem that we need a new nature? Might we liken the need to one who has cataracts? "Unless you are born again__you cannot see. . " (cf Jn3:3,5)

OMT: As someone lamented we should be discussing crossing over into Jordan instead of some of this over stuff, let me say that there were and are giants in the "promised land" given us to defeat. Therefore to expect a "no warfare" scenario is folly. We must expect it. We must overcome those giants in our lives and that is what our new birth from above is all about. We are given to do it the same way He did and then prayed for our success in John 17. However, let him who enters the process, "first count the cost".

 2012/11/11 7:41Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

We have been touching upon this and similar subjects in at least 3 threads that I know of these last few weeks so it may not be completely clear where we all come down on these great subjects. Lest we talk around each other for days, months and years, I want to spell out what I believe on this matter in one spot. Let me first say that I seem to be seeing several posts that suggest that man is effectively born WITHOUT what is sometimes known theologically as Original Pollution. This is effectively what Charles Finney believed and his view is gaining momentum.

One of the fundamental elements of the subject of man's sin and salvation (soteriology) biblically is what came to be known as 'Original Sin.' There are various ways this doctrine is described, but typically it is understood to mean that men and women are born into this life as sinners with a sinful nature. There are the matters of original guilt and original pollution. As David said, "...in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5) Some more radical ideas suggest that the WILL is in complete bondage to the Sinful Nature in a state of Total Depravity. This essentially means that man in his fallen state cannot rightly obey God. I'm not sure the Bible uses the concept of the will in this way. The sad thing is that folks that discuss these topics typically straw-man the other sides views until there is little fruit in the conversation. I hope to change that here.

I want to say that I would affirm that though man is born constituted as a sinner because of the choice of Adam, this constitution by no means relieved man of his free choice. (Joshua 24:15) God is JUST in condemning man for his sin because man could have chosen at any given time NOT to sin. (Romans 2:1) This is the essential message of Romans chapters 1-3. However, we must bear in mind that Romans goes on to tell us that man has been constituted a sinner in Adam. (Romans 5:19 YLT) The KJV uses the phrase "were MADE sinners." Paul goes on to say that by the obedience of one many will be MADE righteous. Keep our eye on the word 'made'. Finney and neo-Finnyites will balk at the notion of imputed righteousness, so there is only one other way for them to see this passage. It has to mean that we are made righteous in Christ, not positionally but actually.

God made man good and upright. But by one man The Sin entered the world and The death by The Sin. This is not sin the fruit (deeds) this is Sin (the root or the dynamic). It should go without saying that all people everywhere have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that seeks after God and there is none that does good- no not one, etc. Jesus told Nicodemas that he must be born from above and mildly chided him for being a teacher in Israel and not knowing this basic fact. Why did he not believe it or teach it? Because you first have to believe that you are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. How can a person sin their life away and then try to suggest that they are not of their father the devil? Not to be surprised, people typically did not accept the sentence then and they don't now. But what did John say?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:8-10)

This is straightforward truth. A person is either a child of God or a child of the Devil. A person canot become a child of God simply by turning over a new leaf or getting rid of a few lousy habits (as L. Ravenhill would say). A person must be BORN of God. This is John 3:3 all over again that Nicodemas, the teacher in Israel, had no clue about. Look around in the world. What do you see? Do you see people sinning and hating one another or do you see people living righteously and loving one another? Some would dismiss these passages or explain them away and say, "It is their choice", etc. and this is true. It IS their choice, but it is also their nature. It's what they do in the same sense that producing thorns is what a thorn bush does. Notice John did NOT call the sinners 'disciples of the Devil'. He did not call them 'followers of the Devil'. He called them CHILDREN of the Devil. Why? Because the Devil is their father. A father does not make followers and disciples, a father makes sons and daughters. This is one of the oldest truths in the Bible- living things bring forth fruit after their own kind. Look at the fruit and you can know the parent.

Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (James 3)

The answer to James' question is a resounding no, it cannot. If you are going to change the fruit of something you have to change its essential nature. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremish 13:23) This motif continues to play out when we read in Hebrews:

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:7-8)

This passage is dealing with the very subject of this thread- the Holy Spirit striving with man. Notice there is no such thing in this passage as a fruitless or thornless tree- a tree is one or the other. Trees are used figuratively in scripture for men. God is pouring out grace and His Spirit and He continues to get thorns and briars. The axe is laid to the root of the trees and those that do not bring forth good fruit are cast into the fire. But a thorn tree cannot arbitrarily decide one day it will bring forth fruit. People try it all the time though. They try to cut the thorns off of their limbs and hang the fruit of the Spirit on like Christmas ornaments. But when the chips are down the real nature of the tree comes out again. Give it time. You will see if it is changed. It is a thorn tree and will always be until God changes it's essential nature by the Finger of God in regeneration (palengenesis). What did Jesus say?

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:4-5)

If there is no fruit then the person is NOT In Christ. It doesn't matter how many times they said the sinners prayer or signed a card. The reality is in the fruit.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:16-21)

If a person is not bearing fruit- they are not partaking of the Holy Spirit. This is because figuratively they are not grafted into the vine. This is what Paul was talking about when he told the Gentiles not to boast against the branches. They had been 'grafted in' to the olive tree (Christ). Let's turn this around. What is a person 'grafted in to' that bears thorns, briars, thistles, etc.? Why do they have to be burned? Because they are bringing forth from their essential nature that is drawing from a totaly different spirit. Nobody on earth lives without drawing from some well- either of Satan or of God. This is not a casual dropping by to get some advice from the Devil, it is a drawing forth of the very life (death) of Satan himself. Jesus told them, "You are of your father the devil." The fruit of the life demonstrates the source of their strength. Paul said it plainly in Ephesians:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; (Ephesians 2:1-5)


So we were dead towards God and alive (quickened) towards the Prince of the Power of the Air- walking in the Spirit of Disobedience- and were by NATURE children of wrath. This is an almost parallel to walking in the Spirit- born of the Spirit- except it is the spirit of the Devil himself. As surely as a thorn tree is one by nature surely a sinner is a sinner by nature. I know it sounds simple, but this is why John had to keep coming back to the subject over and over again. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:8-10)

There is no middle ground where folks are just neutral. One is either a child of God or a child of the devil. They are either in Adam or in Christ. They are either grafted into Christ bearing the fruit of His vine- or they are grafted into the Prince of the Power of the Air and moving in the spirit of disobedience yielding throrns and briars. If a person wants to switch from being a thorn yielding child of the Devil, they have to agree with God in what He has said about them and their condition. You MUST be born from Above. (John 3:3) It is a simple statement of fact. I know it is a little long, but I hope this is enough info to clear up my view of it. Blessings.


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 2012/11/11 8:57Profile
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 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/11 5:57:08

There is no middle ground where folks are just neutral. One is either a child of God or a child of the devil. They are either in Adam or in Christ. They are either grafted into Christ bearing the fruit of His vine- or they are grafted into the Prince of the Power of the Air and moving in the spirit of disobedience yielding throrns and briars. If a person wants to switch from being a thorn yielding child of the Devil, they have to agree with God in what He has said about them and their condition. You MUST be born from Above. (John 3:3) It is a simple statement of fact. I know it is a little long, but I hope this is enough info to clear up my view of it. Blessings.




"Enoch walked with God and God took him". Which side was he on, Robert? Was he born from above? And then there is Abel that, by his faith, pleased God. What about him? Which side was he on? __Why are these people and others as David,a man after God's own heart, completely dismissed when speaking as you have written above. I don't get it. Sorry.

 2012/11/11 9:16Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
"Enoch walked with God and God took him". Which side was he on, Robert? Was he born from above? And then there is Abel that, by his faith, pleased God. What about him? Which side was he on? __Why are these people completely dismissed when speaking as you have written above. I don't get it. Sorry.



They were heirs to the righteousness that is of God by faith. That is a completely different thing than being born from above.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/11 9:20Profile
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 Re:

the nature in Ephesians 2:3 is speaking of the natural course 'the past walk' as 2:2 as does all the verses that use the word nature in scripture

Eph 2:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of (these things!!) cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience

Paul is saying in the future their will be a widespread deception that men with vain words (great orators)will try to deceive many into believing, it will teach that it is not the actions of men that cause the men to become the reciepients of the wrath. Paul says of this 'Let no man deceive you with vain words'

Galatians 2:15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Where the Jews sinless by their nature?? As Ephesians 2:3 this verse is in referense of their natural course our natural course.

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off,(because of unbelief some of the jews where thrown off course) and thou, being a wild olive tree,(being on a natural course that will cause us to do things that will bring about the wrath of God on us) wert grafted in among them,(grafted on to a new course) and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches.(jews) But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The word nature in scripture is never in context to some inherent sin that we inherit at conception that causes us to be the recipient of Gods wrath because we are of Adams offspring but rather the term is always reffering to our natural course.

that voice that you right now are reasoning these things with is the Flesh the sarx mind as murrcolr has reliezed ///it’s me I am the Flesh/// it is our voice of reason.

step on into the water

I had to edit the paraghraphs in order







 2012/11/11 9:22Profile
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 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/11 6:20:26

Quote:
"Enoch walked with God and God took him". Which side was he on, Robert? Was he born from above? And then there is Abel that, by his faith, pleased God. What about him? Which side was he on? __Why are these people completely dismissed when speaking as you have written above. I don't get it. Sorry.



They were heirs to the righteousness that is of God by faith. That is a completely different thing than being born from above.
Quote:


Not in a heartbeat can you reconcile them with your pronouncement. They were either on one side or the other. You said so.

 2012/11/11 9:24Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
I don't get it. Sorry.



What is being lost in this conversation is the distinction between the old testament and New Covenant possibilities. There were saints in the Old Testament, but they did not have the promises of the New Covenant. The New Covenant brings to the table exceeding great and precious promises whereby we can become partakers of the Divine Nature. The Old Covenant desired to hear the things that we now hear but never heard them.

For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. (Luke 10:24)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/11 9:27Profile
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 Re:



RE: Poudpapa

The word nature in scripture is never in context to some inherent sin that we inherit at conception that causes us to be the recipient of Gods wrath because we are of Adams offspring but rather the term is always reffering to our natural course.

that voice that you right now are reasoning these things with is the FLESH the sarx mind as murrcolr has reliezed ///it’s me I am the Flesh/// it is our voice of reason.




No! The ME is my SOUL. MY SOUL is who I am.

How 'bout going at this OMT with that in mind?


 2012/11/11 9:30Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
Not in a heartbeat can you reconcile them with your pronouncement. They were either on one side or the other. You said so.



For one, the paragraph you quoted is out of it's context. I didn't say that one is one or the other, John did. I am merely agreeing with what he said. I believe John is right. Do you?

Abraham, Enoch and the rest of the Old Testament believers were all in Adam, but they died in faith- not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


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 2012/11/11 9:34Profile





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