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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by proudpapa on 2012/11/10 8:38:18

Hi Croref

I do not use commentaries for any other reason than to see if any of them has came to the same conclusion as I have, I believe for the most part that they muffle the Word of God.
As in this case I only use it to show that my perspective is held by others than just myself and since they often times are better at articulating the belief,
You keep speaking of Chambers and others so do not take a position as though you only read your bible.




I don't trust commentaries, Papa. The fact I might happen to refer to one that will agree with my thinking is 1. rare. 2. That they do it is usually with a caveat. I never take anything from them for the most part because they are grossly slanted/biased in their take on the issues surrounding redemption, salvation and the new birth. Most all very shallow and stuck in one mode of thinking that excuses man/relieves him of all responsibility after his initial salvation __and spend much time and words exhorting one to hang in there. That's sometimes called the "white knuckle club". How they know anyone is saved in beyond me. Anyway, you mentioned Chambers. I would say this: he is not slanted. He is not a commentator but a teacher. Not a theologian but an expositor of his vision of Jesus Christ, established in a pure heart that, next to my Bible is the next best literary treasure anyone could possibly have and take into himself for the perfecting of his soul for the Father... He covers all the issues in a way that one who seeks Father with all his heart, soul and mind will find to be an elder brother.
As a closing exhortation: if you want a word from the Lord read his devotional,"My Utmost for His Highest". No other compares.

In Christ,

Cross

 2012/11/10 12:29Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,


The reason I am so adamantly opposed to the doctrine of sin nature and Romans 7 taught as the normal Christian life is because I was once inslaved to gross habitual sin and I excused it in my mind with these beliefs, It was not untill I had these views challenged did I truly come to a relization of my own personal depravity and my true need of a savior.


I think it is important to keep in mind that Christ dealt with man's sinful nature on the cross so that they that are IN Christ have been freed from it. I personally don't believe that true Christians that are truly born again (not of a decision or merely saying a prayer, etc.) have two natures. This is a common view, but I do not share it. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/10 13:07Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/10 10:07:01
I think it is important to keep in mind that Christ dealt with man's sinful nature on the cross so that they that are IN Christ have been freed from it. I personally don't believe that true Christians that are truly born again (not of a decision or merely saying a prayer, etc.) have two natures. This is a common view, but I do not share it. Blessings.




I fully agree! The soul of man can only handle one. I do however, believe the flesh is that which remains that must be overcome by that one new born from above. Jesus exampled this that we might understand the issues.

 2012/11/10 13:36Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: RobertW

Hi RobertW

///think it is important to keep in mind that Christ dealt with man's sinful nature on the cross so that they that are IN Christ have been freed from it. I personally don't believe that true Christians that are truly born again (not of a decision or merely saying a prayer, etc.) have two natures. This is a common view, but I do not share it. Blessings.///

why add the word nature to mans sinfulness? why not just say that Christ dealt with man's sin on the cross so that they that are IN Christ have been freed from it.

why be so adamant about using a phrase that is no where found in scripture, KJV ,greek or hebrew ?

I only say that because had you just said sin without adding the word nature. I could have and would have simply said (well said)

But anyhow it is more of the dual nature theolgy that I am opposed to, thankyou for clarifying your position on that aspect.

great thoughts and great disscussion

 2012/11/10 15:18Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: But anyhow it is more of the dual nature theolgy that I am opposed to.

Personally I don't really care what you want to call it.

Scripture tells us that we as Christian's two opposing forces that are work in us.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/10 18:40Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i think there will allways be fruitless dialog when there is different definitons used by different people for a word like nature

some will call it one nature,,somewill call it two natures some will call it two forces that effect our nature

i honestly dont know what the standared defenition of the word nature is

all i know is the flesh and the spirit seems to have effects on our nature and how we act

and before we recieved the spirit of god ,andd were givern a new heart

this flesh seemed to control us to the extent ,that it ws imposable to please god ,in anything we did

weather we call it a sinnature ,or a flesh nature

or flesh or sin ,,or evil ,or courption

it had us all as its slave and we obaed it


sin nature ,,or a slave to sin ,,seems to mean the same thing

slave is bound by his master and can not just be set free

he is a bond slave of sin ,

whats worse is he knowns no other master ,and drinks sin as if it was water

he has allways been free from righteousness ,till christ set him free as paul said


blessings

 2012/11/10 19:07Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Quote:
why be so adamant about using a phrase that is no where found in scripture, KJV ,greek or hebrew ?



The term sin nature is based in part on Ephesians 2:3b; ...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. It is actually the term employed by the NIV translators to translate sarx in Galatians 5:17, "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." This was likely done to keep folks from thinking that the trouble is our flesh (body). That would be dualism.

Quote:
why add the word nature to mans sinfulness



Because man is not a sinner simply because he/she sins; they sin because they are sinners. They are by nature children of wrath. By one man The Sin entered the world and by one man's sin we were all constituted sinners. In contrast, by one man's obedience many will be constituted righteous. That is to say, in the same way that men were by nature rebellious children of wrath IN Adam- they can be by nature obedient loving children of God IN Christ. Hope that helps. Blessings.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/10 22:25Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Let me say first of all thanks to all who have posted on this thread.

On my quest I have read many books, listened to many sermons, posted many posts to try and understand the “theology” on how a man becomes “Holy”. I became a member of sermonindex 2007 after finding Duncan Campbell’s testimony on here. God Spirit through Duncan’s testimony opened up the door that it was possible to be Holy. It was these words of Duncan’s that cut through my heart like knife “go for God whatever it takes” This led to a whole month where God’s Spirit was on me in a very strong way, during this time he opened my eyes to see my condition but he also gave me the hope for a cure.

As we say here in Scotland “the penny has dropped” it has become clear to me on what must be done to crossover into Canaan to live a Holy and Victorious life. I now understand what happened to Duncan Campbell as he lay bleeding on the battlefield in France. As he lay there bleeding to death with no hope of rescue he surrendered his all to God. When God saw that complete and full surrender by the faith to the Son of God he purified Duncan and allowed him into Canaan Duncan “entered into his rest”

I see it like Duncan I must surrender completely to the Spirit of God because it’s me I am the Flesh; it is me that hinders God Spirit. The life of a Christian is not supposed to be walked in the power of self but in the Power of the Holy Spirit.

I know understand what Paul means, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me Gal 2:20

I have not found that place of surrender yet but I can see that is what is required a full surrender by faith in Christ; then and only then will I be able to declare although I live it’s not me, it’s Christ.

Blessings and thanks again.


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Colin Murray

 2012/11/11 0:25Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: murrcolr

excelant post, murrcolr

I have just finished spending 2 hours on an indepth response to brother RobertWs last post (one that I was real proud of) but I believe I will hold off on posting it. There is alot of power in your post and I do not want to disrupt it.
we are spending to much time in the wilderness if not still in egypt it is time to step into Jordan.

 2012/11/11 0:51Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

proud papa. I don't think that we need to say Romans 7 is arguably dealing with an unregenerate man under grace and not a believer under grave. Paul's statements are much too clear for that. Paul is unquestionably dealing with his life before grace and the futility of trying to be right with God and live a righteous life by the works of theflesh.

as to nature, i agree that the concept of man's nature is not a direct biblical teaching. Being by nature the children of wrath is not speaking of an innate nature, but is saying that by nature of the fact that we were lost, err were deserving only of God s wrath. it is a different definition of the word nature.


The only real scriptural defense of duality of nature comes from these two passages. I don't think, if we interpret correctly, that the idea off duality of nature has a leg to stand on.

however we do deal with our flesh, and its desires. my flesh is not born again. My spirit is. this is why Paul spends so much time talking about our walking in the spirit. Romans 7 is between 6 and 8 in much the same way as 1 Corinthians 13 is between 12 &14. it cannot by pulled out to stand on its own. it is given in the context of contrasting flesh and spirit.


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Travis

 2012/11/11 7:10Profile





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