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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God does not go against the will of man.

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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:Well said

Thanks proud papa


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/11/4 14:44Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Approved

My observation is that even though many people may disagree with some of Croref understandings he is not getting heated nor offended.

I for one am also enjoying this exchange, I Like a good challenge when The challenger is not getting emotional

 2012/11/4 14:47Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Thanks all. I did say I put my foot in my mouth __I mean that to be from time to time and not all the time. Hopefully having made that clear, I also am open to being rectified by by more complete thinking __and hopefully from the saints who are learning to be faithful in Christ..

 2012/11/4 14:54Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Thank you, twayneb!

What you have posited is probably the best [return] understanding [put into words] I can look forward to. That said, you left out one consideration that needs be entered into the equation, i.e., the foreknowledge of God. I invite you to, not that for the most part it is needed, think about that and make any adjustment to your reply you may wish to.

Words mean something. I am always open to sound ones. Thanks again.



Croref: Like I said, there are many ways that this discussion could go. So many times we tend to approach scripture wearing sunglasses the color of our choosing and as a result we see and interpret all scriptures through that lens. When we do this, a polarizing effect is produced in us and in the body of Christ. We need to be careful that we do not drive off into a ditch on either side of an issue.

You are right, I did not address foreknowledge. I did not feel that it was not necessary to do so to answer the question at hand. I sought only to give some scriptural examples that would indicate that at times man's decisions impact the timing and perhaps the actual fulfillment of God's will.

As to divine foreknowledge, we can, I think, make an important observation. We, as men, do not have the divine perspective. We now see through a glass darkly. We could argue ad-nausaeum about whether God pre-determines all events, knows the ultimate outcome of every decision that man makes. Yet none of our arguments is able to establish with absolute, Biblical clarity that which only the Spirit of the Lord knows. If they were, then the argument would cease, would it not? We are often so sure we know, and we so often have our theological ducks lined up, only to have that one scripture that keeps bothering us deep within the recesses of our mind.

I have been pretty sure I understood some things, only to have scriptures placed before me that seemed to undo all that I thought I knew so well. This is the reason for the scriptural admonition to study to show ourselves approved.

I say all of that to say this. Our knowledge of scripture is like working a jig-saw puzzle. We begin by putting together the clearly delineated borders. This is the framework of our faith. At this point we cannot see the entire picture, and we have only the vaguest idea of where things might fit. Then we begin to fit pieces together. We might have a patch of color, a barn, a horse, a tree, etc. but we don't know yet how it fits into the whole. I am convinced that we will continue to put in the pieces, hopefully under the direction of the Holy Spirit, until Jesus returns, and we will still not be able to see the whole picture.

I cannot say for sure that God has total foreknowledge of every individual decision that is made by men. Certainly it is within His power to do so. Perhaps He does. Or, along with giving man free will, perhaps He has chosen not to know. I can say of a certainty that the prophecy that came by the Spirit of God of 400 years was extended to 430 years by the decision of Moses to get the show on the road prior to God's ordained time frame. I can say that I have seen men for whom God's will did not come to pass due to their own decisions.


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Travis

 2012/11/4 15:16Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re: REPENT!

To those who have a low view of God but a high view of themselves: REPENT!

To those who think that God isn't sovereign inasmuch as He must submit His plans to the creature's will: REPENT!

To those who exalt the will of man so as to subvert God's prerogative and divine purposes: REPENT!

The truth: Man's will is subservient to God's purposes.

The truth: No one can accuse God of wrongdoing, since we are found guilty on the basis of the transgression of a universal knowledge of God (found in creation and in the conscience - Romans 1 & 2). Redemption is purely God's prerogative and His merciful condescension; He does not owe man anything besides judgment based on his rebellion against God.

The truth: When God changes someone's heart, that person WILLINGLY comes to Christ, nor forcefully.

We must recognize the difference between archtypal knowledge and ectypal knowledge, especially since God condescends to our level in order to communicate with us using our language, which does not necessarily relate univocally with the way things are to Him, but rather analogically. Thus, when the Bible says that God "repented" or "changed His mind", we must understand this within the context of God's condescension to interact with us, not as a breach of His sovereign divinity (much in the same way that God does not literally have "wings" - Psalm 36:7).

In Christ,
Renoncer

 2012/11/4 15:35Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

y twayneb on 2012/11/4 12:16:44

Quote:
Thank you, twayneb!

What you have posited is probably the best [return] understanding [put into words] I can look forward to. That said, you left out one consideration that needs be entered into the equation, i.e., the foreknowledge of God. I invite you to, not that for the most part it is needed, think about that and make any adjustment to your reply you may wish to.

Words mean something. I am always open to sound ones. Thanks again.



Croref: Like I said, there are many ways that this discussion could go. So many times we tend to approach scripture wearing sunglasses the color of our choosing and as a result we see and interpret all scriptures through that lens. When we do this, a polarizing effect is produced in us and in the body of Christ. We need to be careful that we do not drive off into a ditch on either side of an issue.

You are right, I did not address foreknowledge. I did not feel that it was not necessary to do so to answer the question at hand. I sought only to give some scriptural examples that would indicate that at times man's decisions impact the timing and perhaps the actual fulfillment of God's will.


Thank you twayneb,

Faith notwithstanding, we can't complete thought processes without considering it and that is why I pointed it out to you. And I am not meaning to imply God predetermining anything but only that which applies to His purposes does He deal with that it all comes out as He plans..Man devises, God directs. He works within His foreknowledge to anticipate everything__and why wouldn't He? The account of Adam's transgression gives us this understanding. What can else can be more known to Him before it happens that might be called, "foreknowledge"?

 2012/11/4 16:45Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: "He sends that which he "foreknows" will move you in His direction by influence and not force. In this even Paul was no exception. Think about Paul's prior life before saying I'm wrong."

Acts 9:4-6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

So forceful was Pauls encounter with Jesus, Paul trembling ask, "what wilt thou have me to do?".

Being knocked of His horse, blinded, spoken to by Glory Himself and told what He "MUST" do, I see to be pretty forceful.

Then the understanding comes, being with JEsus for over three years; Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Pretty much the same with all God's chosen, Moses burning bush etc. and the cleft of the rock, Jacob bad hip from a wrestling match, Peter's rooster, etc. Pretty much, God in control of all His children, especially those that He puts His Incorruptable Seed, The Livimg Word Himself, Jesus; in, being born again; that we become the offspring of God our new Father. God's choice of sons', not mans choice of a father. Who is able to choose their own Father?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/11/5 15:30Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Christinyou

Hi Christinyou

Christinyou wrote
///God's choice of sons', not mans choice of a father. Who is able to choose their own Father?///

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent


 2012/11/5 21:36Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Christinyou on 2012/11/5 12:30:50

Quote: "He sends that which he "foreknows" will move you in His direction by influence and not force. In this even Paul was no exception. Think about Paul's prior life before saying I'm wrong."

Acts 9:4-6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

So forceful was Pauls encounter with Jesus, Paul trembling ask, "what wilt thou have me to do?".

Being knocked of His horse, blinded, spoken to by Glory Himself and told what He "MUST" do, I see to be pretty forceful.




Did not God foreknow this time would come in Paul's life He Himself was responsible for because of His direction given Him by the will of Paul? God did not choose one who He foreknew would NOT respond to His pressure in the afterwards of Paul's choices. Research this thing back to Balaam to see how God deals with such a one who refused to.

 2012/11/6 8:24Profile





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