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Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 9:54:48

Hi Coref,

Quote:
But justification without the shed blood of Jesus is short of salvation. Without the Blood the Justified would have remained separated from God, held captive by death.. Paradise would still be in use. That is what I see from Rom.5:1.



Quote:
I heard an illustration concerning propitiation and the Blood of Christ that I have found useful. A man takes his 5 children to the Zoo and the ticket taker allows the first three through without a ticket. Why? Because they saw dad coming with the money in his hand. In like fashion, the saints of old were saved by the blood of Christ just as the saints today, because for the OT saints the price paid to remove the offence was coming.



If they had been saved they, when they died, would have been admitted directly into the presence of God. Jesus would have not have had to descend into the grave to set them free..

 2012/10/27 13:04Profile









 Re: A different view about the Ephesus Disciples

Dear brother Robert,
Thank you for your wonderful post. This was the kind of detailed response that I was originally seeking when I started this conversation. I was specifically wanting clarity on the apostles as well as the Ephesus disciples.

Forgive me if I am wrong brother, but are you suggesting that the Ephesus disciples were not born again, until Paul laid his hands on them, and it was then that they received the indwelling Holy Spirit and became born again?

This was in fact my original question, so you have given a wonderful response. However, I am leaning towards the alternate view to what actually happened when they met Paul..

Quote:
Paul arrives at Ephesus and asks these disciples a question; "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" (Acts 19:2a NKJV) Notice that Paul does not 'tell' them that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, but he 'asks' them if they received when they believed.



Again, I see here that you are assuming that Paul is asking them if they were in fact "born again" of the Spirit. If Paul was in fact asking them this, then of course he would not tell them that they had already received (become born again) because how would he know, how would anyone know, except the Spirit Himself?

But what if Paul was simply asking them if they had received the Holy Spirit, as in the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"? This would make a lot more sense to me, and is making a lot more sense, the more I am studying this topic of being born again and then in addition to this, receiving a second blessing, the "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

It seems if you are saying that Paul was asking them to articulate the "science" behind them becoming born again? If that is the case, I do not agree.

Quote:
Hypothetically speaking if one of them were to die before they received the Spirit they would still be 'saved' (justified), because our standing with God is not based upon sanctification, but upon the finished work of the Cross. As we may reasonably assume, there is ample reason to believe that their faith was genuine; and yet they had not 'consciously' received the Holy Spirit. If anyone should know it is the person, so Paul asks them and assumes he will get an answer. They said that they had not as much as heard that there by any Holy Spirit.



Your quote above suggests again that you do in fact believe these guys were NOT born again before Paul met them. Again, I offer the alternate view that they were in fact already saved, born again, had the Spirit, but because they had never even heard that there was such a person as the Holy Spirit, they did not know or have any doctrinal explanation of the new birth, and certainly had no understanding of the baptism in the Holy Spirit as manifested on the day of Pentecost.

It seems more probably that they had been already been reborn, had a new heart but did not know the exact "science" of how this had taken place. So when Paul meets them he sees evidence of their faith but is now asking them if had they had received the "enduement of power from on high", the overflow of the Holy Spirit...the "out of your innermost being will flow RIVERS of living water...this he spoke of the Holy Spirit " experience.

This brings me to three critical points.

I believe that it is possible for them or ANYONE for that matter to be born again, born of the Holy Spirit and not have an understanding or a theological knowledge of who the Holy Spirit actually is. It is the Holy Spirit who enlightens us, He is the one who brings us to a conviction of sin, to urge us to repent of our sins and to believe on Christ to be saved. According to Jesus's explanation in John 3, they seem to have fulfilled the conditions for the Holy Spirit to bring them to new birth? Or am I missing something?

Secondly, is much like the first point above...do we need an explanation of who the Spirit is, before He can work in our heart? If we take the view that Paul was leading them into the new birth but FIRST had to explain who the Spirit was, that He actually exists, then we reduce His work down to a very natural level. They did not need to know and neither does anyone need to know that the Holy Spirit even exists before that same person is born again by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly, if it was only possible for the Ephesus believers to become born again (receive the Holy Spirit) by the laying on of Paul's or another Apostles hands, how is then that any of us are born again...I certainly never had anyone lay his hands on me when I received the Holy Spirit.

So in conclusion, I would suggest that these believers were already born again by the Spirit, that their hearts were already changed, that they were in fact already children of God, "Sons of God" and had the indwelling Christ by the agency of the Holy Spirit? Much the same way Paul describes it here. "He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Cor 1:22. But, they did not have the fullness of the Spirit yet and Paul found that out. Paul prayed for them and they then received the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the same manner that the 120 disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

To be perfectly honest with you, I did not understand this passage before I initiated this thread, but because of the multitude of responses and my own study, I believe I have a better understanding now. I hope this post above helps others who are likewise searching for answers.

In Christ,
Mark

 2012/10/27 13:21
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Croref,

Quote:
If they had been saved they, when they died, would have been admitted directly into the presence of God. Jesus would have not have had to descend into the grave to set them free.



Probably a better word would have been 'justified' rather than 'saved'. And I do agree that 'Abraham's Bosom' (Paradise) was relocated to Heaven through the effectual working of the cross. Jesus told the thief "you will be with me in Paradise" and Paul said later, "I was caught 'up' unto Paradise". This word 'Paradise' (παραδείσῳ) is found in the LXX in Genesis 2:8 and rendered 'the garden' (of Eden). Traditionally, this was the good department of Hades where the heirs to the righteousness of God that is by faith await the resurrection. this is why I to associate Paradise with Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22-23). Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 13:26Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Awakened, (edited)

Quote:
Forgive me if I am wrong brother, but are you suggesting that the Ephesus disciples were not born again, until Paul laid his hands on them, and it was then that they received the indwelling Holy Spirit and became born again?



When I think of being born again, I am thinking of palengenesis that I believe is defined primarily by the fact that Jesus Christ is stitting on the throne of a person heart. We then have to ask ourselves, if Paul said there is really only 'One' Baptism, why did he say this and at what point did this Baptism take place in the life of the Disciples? We are moving in tall corn here, and a great many things become very uncomfortable to consider. But if we want to walk in what the New Testament believers walked in and not something lesser, then I think we have to trace carefully exactly what their experience was.

The coming of the Spirit was at Pentecost. For me, this is the great Baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire that John the Baptist spoke of and is also what Paul referred to when he stated that we are all baptized into one body by the Spirit. To me, this is how we get 'IN' to Jesus Christ and it is by Spirit baptism. I am keeping my eye closely on Ephesians 4:5 so that I don't make two baptisms; i.e. one in John 20:22 and one in Acts 2:1ff. If Paul is right in saying that there is really only ONE Baptism, just as though their be gods many there is only ONE God, then I have to ask myself where to find this ONE Baptism Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4:5. For me, the sheer magnitude of the event points to Acts 2:1ff.

Paul takes this up in Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. So we see then that the promise of the Spirit is in view as the great promise the Gentiles were to partake of. In Acts 19, Paul is simply asking these people if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. I don't think he wants a scientific answer, but an experiencial answer. Maybe I would word it this way, "Do you recall when God came in to you?" "Did God (the Holy Spirit) come IN to you when you believed?" They had already believed and were already justified, but now Paul is wanting them to be baptized by one Spirit into the one Body of Christ. He wants them to have what John Baptist spoke of.

When we are Baptized into Christ God appropriates to us everything that Christ achieved on the cross in terms of His victory over Sin. Unlike the first Adam that failed and we had to suffer under the burden of his history, being in Christ (the last Adam) by baptism into His Body, we are made potentially as Christlike and godly as we were potentially sinful and devilish under old Adam. The New Creature is one that is IN Christ. I know of no other way to get INTO Christ than by baptism into His one Body. To me Jesus said it, For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:5) This is post John 20:22 and in my view is the promise that God had been wanting to send all along- that He might by the Spirit take whosoever will out of Adam and put them INTO Christ. This is the greatest event in the history of mankind in my view. Hope that helps. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 13:48Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Robert,
I think you were directing your answer at me (Mark) and not Approved?

At any rate, I am not debating the use of the word Baptism, in fact I agree with Zac Poonen when he states that the King James version incorrectly uses the word baptism, in respect to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

The better understanding of Pentecost, according to Poonen is that the disciples received the "immersion under the under Spirit".

Explained this way there is no issue with "one baptism", and we can agree on Ephesians 4. I don't have the link off hand but there is a wonderful sermon given by brother Zac explaining the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

To my larger point though, I think I have come to the understanding at this point in my life that I can be born again of the Holy Spirit but still not experience the fullness of the Spirits life in me but that can happen once I am "immersed in the Holy Spirit", as a separate distinct, and ongoing experience to salvation (being born again).

And therefore I believe that the Ephesus disciples were born again but received the "immersion of the Holy Spirit" when Paul prayed for them.

Do you brother Robert hold to this same view? Which also seems to be the view of many of the preachers on this site (Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Conlon, Poonen, Reidhead etc), that there is to be had for the born again believer a separate, distinct, secondary experience often referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but we can call this the "immersion of the Holy Spirit".

Would you mind clarifying that point, as this will help me understand a lot of your previous writings. Thanks brother.

In Christ,
Mark

 2012/10/27 14:16
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Awakened,

Sorry about the misaddress earlier to Approved.

Quote:
Do you brother Robert hold to this same view? Which also seems to be the view of many of the preachers on this site (Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Conlon, Poonen, Reidhead etc), that there is to be had for the born again believer a separate, distinct, secondary experience often referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but we can call this the "immersion of the Holy Spirit".

Would you mind clarifying that point, as this will help me understand a lot of your previous writings. Thanks brother.



My view would probably be similar, but not exactly the same (although there are variations among these men as well). I believe that all Believers, past, present and future are 'justified' and have peace with God though the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, to me, is the 'first blessing' and everyone that is an heir to the righteousness that is of God by faith has this blessing.

A second blessing, in my understanding, is everything else God has promised in the New Covenant in Christ. It is the means by which we can be made partakers of the Divine Nature. The trouble with explaining my view is that there are so many assumptions and theologies that strive against what I'm trying to explain. It takes an almost fresh look at the New Testament to see it. For the longest time I came down on the traditional lines of Classical Pentecostals or Second Blessing Holiness, but giving it persistent thought and study I have come to a view, by way of comparison more in line with men like G.W. North.

There is a book he has written that is now out of print (though possibly available used) called 'One Baptism'. Several years ago I read the old book and it started me to thinking a little differently about these great things. For those interested it is here for free:
http://www.newtestamentpattern.net/biblestudy/onebaptism/the-end-of-all-flesh.htm


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 14:55Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 10:26:36

Hi Croref,


Quote:

Probably a better word would have been 'justified' rather than 'saved'. And I do agree that 'Abraham's Bosom' (Paradise) was relocated to Heaven through the effectual working of the cross. Jesus told the thief "you will be with me in Paradise" and Paul said later, "I was caught 'up' unto Paradise". This word 'Paradise' (παραδείσῳ) is found in the LXX in Genesis 2:8 and rendered 'the garden' (of Eden). Traditionally, this was the good department of Hades where the heirs to the righteousness of God that is by faith await the resurrection. this is why I to associate Paradise with Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22-23). Blessings.



Exactly!! We are on the same page. Thank you.

 2012/10/27 15:25Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:


Bro. Robert

Quote:
The coming of the Spirit was at Pentecost. For me, this is the great Baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire that John the Baptist spoke of and is also what Paul referred to when he stated that we are all baptized into one body by the Spirit. To me, this is how we get 'IN' to Jesus Christ and it is by Spirit baptism. I am keeping my eye closely on Ephesians 4:5 so that I don't make two baptisms; i.e. one in John 20:22 and one in Acts 2:1ff. If Paul is right in saying that there is really only ONE Baptism, just as though their be gods many there is only ONE God, then I have to ask myself where to find this ONE Baptism Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4:5. For me, the sheer magnitude of the event points to Acts 2:1ff.



The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ. It is a for the enduement for power to function in ministry as Jesus functioned. One knows he has received something when it is experienced, cf Acts 19:1-7. We both know that by confession and faith [lived out] gifts one salvation. Being born again places him in the Body of Christ. This, Jesus lived out for thirty years before He was baptized with the Holy spirit. Then it was He was driven into the wilderness to be tested__not until then.

Why think of our experience should be any different than that if indeed we believe that is what Jesus' experience was?

 2012/10/27 15:45Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

I have really enjoyed following this thread. Some great posts and points put across with a good attitude to one another. This is what this forum should be like!

Robert/ I appreciated your explanation on how you see the difference between justification and regeneration. I have recenty read Ron Bailey's book (The New Covenant) and it seemed he was alluding to this, but did not explain it. I was going to ask him, but I think you have answed my question, as I'm sure you see it pretty much the same way.

So are you saying there are two class of believers? Those who are Justified and have their sins forgiven and then those who are justified AND have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and are baptised into Christ? This would mean the first group are not in Christ.

This seems to contradict a number of scripture. e.g Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is not His (Christ's) and 1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the testimony that God has given us, eternal life, and this life is in His Son. v.12 He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son of God does not have life". It seems clear here that if you don't have the Spirit, you don't have the Son and if you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life. So how can some one be justified and have eternal life (be saved) without having the Spirit ot the Son?

I am very sceptical about there being believers who are 'saved', but not 'in Christ' or in the body of Christ
I would say if there are 'so called belivers' (maybe better to say professors) that are not in Christ, that they are also not justified and are lost and in need of salvation.

BTW -Ron's book is very good!


_________________
Dave

 2012/10/27 16:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We are moving in tall corn here, and a great many things become very uncomfortable to consider.

Agreed. I am truly grateful as to the answers that God has enabled you to understand and to share them unto us. This is not a time to be offended because of one's upbringing and the way we have been taught, but like the Ephesians, they wanted what Paul was talking about. They didn't argue doctrine, they soaked up what Paul was instructing them to do and they received it with open arms.

Another thing that I can't stand hearing is the downgrading of the Holy Spirit as something that is secondary for the purpose of power. Yet this is the very power that changes us. The One Baptism IS the new birth experience, it's not secondary, it's paramount.

Jesus speaking to Peter saying, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32

"When you are converted", Peter was not yet converted, this conversion comes at Pentecost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

"Times of refreshing" is the One Baptism to which we are baptized into Christ, hence, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

 2012/10/27 16:52





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