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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by bearmaster on 2012/10/26 14:57:22

I guess tbe question in ny mind is if one like Abraham was saved by faith. Did he have to be born again? Could an O. T. saint be saved by faith and not be born again?




I believe I have already stated one could not be born again before the death, resurrection and glorification of Jesus. cf John 20:22. Since I believe that to be accurate I leave you to consider the salvation of the OT saints who were not even redeemed. I hope you arrive at a satisfactory conclusion to the matter that you will share.

 2012/10/27 3:38Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

I highly recommend everyone read this book:
|

Excerpts from “The Ultimate Intention” (1) – by Devern Fromke

He wrote it back in the 60's. I taught from it in the 70's.

There are some more endorsements over in "General Topics" section.




“I believe the hour has come when God is initiating another major recovery. This time it is not just a truth, but the restoration of something so imperative that it will give the ultimate perspective to all truth.” (Preface, pg.9)

“Believers may not often realize it, but even as believers we are either centered in man, or centered in God. There is no alternative. Either God is the center of our universe and we have become rightly adjusted to Him, or we have made ourselves the center and are attempting to make all else orbit around us and for us. When the truth dawns, we are amazed to discover how the snare of making all things to revolve around man has been the bane of most of our preaching and teaching. This is true even of the area of teaching which is considered to be of the deeper life emphasis. As long as men are victims of this wrong philosophy and approach to truth, they cannot avoid reckoning from a self-center. When the center is wrong, then everything in our reckoning is wrong. It is my prayer that in these pages the reader will discover the lost coin of truth and be prepared to take what may seem like drastic measures in accepting a new center, where the whole conception of the Christian life is changed from man-consciousness to God-consciousness; from man as the center to God as the center from which all truth is seen. ” (Preface, pg.10)

 2012/10/27 4:09Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
John 20:22
      22. he breathed on them--a symbolical conveyance to them of the Spirit.
      and saith, Receive ye the Holy Ghost--an earnest and first-fruits of the more copious Pentecostal effusion.

If they received the fulness of the Holy Spirit in them forever at this time, why Pentecost? Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Fourfold Gospel and Commentary on Acts
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit. And as the New Testament is now sealed in his blood according to the commission under which he came, he, in turn, commissions the twelve to go forth and proclaim its provisions. Symbolic of the baptism which they were to receive at Pentecost, he breathes upon them.
(TFG 753)

A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures
John 20:22
He breathed on them (enephusêsen). First aorist active indicative of emphusaô, late verb, here only in N.T. though eleven times in the LXX and in the papyri. It was a symbolic art with the same word used in the LXX when God breathed the breath of life upon Adam (Ge 2:7). It occurs also in Eze 37:9. See Christ's promise in Joh 16:23. Jesus gives the disciples a foretaste of the great pentecost. Receive ye the Holy Ghost (labete pneuma hagion). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of lambanô. Note absence of article here (pneuma hagion) though to pneuma to hagion in Joh 14:26. No real distinction is to be observed, for Holy Spirit is treated as a proper name with or without the article.

John Wesley's Notes on the Bible
John 20:22
Verse 22. He breathed on them - New life and vigour, and saith, as ye receive this breath out of my mouth, so receive ye the Spirit out of my fulness: the Holy Ghost influencing you in a peculiar manner, to fit you for your great embassy. This was an earnest of pentecost.

Just a few.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/10/27 4:21Profile
Croref
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 Re:

Re: Reply To This Post |

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
John 20:22
22. he breathed on them--a symbolical conveyance to them of the Spirit.
and saith, Receive ye the Holy Ghost--an earnest and first-fruits of the more copious Pentecostal effusion.

If they received the fulness of the Holy Spirit in them forever at this time, why Pentecost? Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. __and on and on:




If you truly want the conclusion to this matter all that is necessary is to look at the life of Jesus and perhaps ask the question why He needed to be baptized with/by the Holy Ghost before being sent into the world? Was He not already born "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit who abode "with" Him throughout 30 yrs of His life and then was "Clothed" with power when the Holy Spirit came "upon" Him. Why all this when we think of Him as being God? And did He not say that that which was in, with, and upon Him was purposed for those born again from above? Forthrightly considering this will more than suggest your submitted commentators to be wrong in their "opinions". They are so because their agenda is to first support their subjective biased doctrine[s]. For this the Church has suffered great loss.

 2012/10/27 4:56Profile









 Re:

QUOTE : Here is the passage: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12 (KJV)

"Receiving Him" is to explain John 20:22, doncha think? END OF QUOTE

Yes I think so.

He gives them power but there are things they must learn first. These things culminate in the experience of Romans 7 where the man understands fully the failure and uselessness of the flesh in serving God, even the best service he can give God. If it is not entirely under the control of the Spirit it is not acceptable and full delivery from the old nature is required so that the man can be perfect nor saved from sin - entire sanctification in other words.

 2012/10/27 5:59
jimp
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 Re:

dear cro,i have read and enjoyed your post for they are well writen andcome from a heart filled with God's Spirit. in my going; igo because i have been sent. as you go,or go into all the world ...Jesus said these are not my followers ... they said why... He said for I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat... whatever you do to the least of these;you do unto Me..in respect and love,jimp

 2012/10/27 6:41Profile
RobertW
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Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Ho CroRef,

You asked:

Quote:
Oh, BTW, If a new heart given by God, why the need to circumcise it?



Circumcision of the heart and the topic of 'the flesh' and what exactly it is, have been discussed at great length here in the past, so I will only touch my understanding of it briefly.

Paul said plainly, But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (Romans 8:9a). I see the flesh two different ways depending on whom is being spoken to. If I am speaking to the unregenerate, the word flesh means man's human nature spoiled by 'The Sin'. In my view 'The Sin' (Sin the dynamic as opposed to sin(s) the deeds) entered the world through Adam so that all that are 'IN' Adam share in His fallen human nature (Adamic nature). They that are 'IN' Adam are also walking according to the course of this world and the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2). This person would be truly uncircumcised in heart and ears. This is the uncircumcision of their flesh.

When a person is baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit, were are taken out of Adam and are put 'IN' the Last Adam (Jesus Christ). So we are all either in the First Adam or the Last Adam. A person can be 'saved' (justified) and be in the First Adam, but they were not in the Kingdom of God. Not even John the Baptist was in the Kingdom of God. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is for those that are living out the reality of the New Covenant through the One Baptism in the Spirit.

Consider this reasoning:

John the Baptist knew he would not be part of the regeneration of believers while on earth. I'm referring again to palengenesis (παλιγγενεσίας) spoken of in Titus 3:5. How do we know he would not be a part of it? Watch the personal pronouns:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11)

Notice what John the Baptist did NOT say. He did not say He will baptize 'us'; he said Jesus Christ will baptize 'you'. This is the great One Baptism in the Holy Spirit of Acts 2:1 that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4:5. John never lived to see the Kingdom of God come on the earth (though He preached it) except as that Kingdom was revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. The Kingdom of God is God's absolute domain. Like Jesus as the Temple when He walked the earth, He was also the Kingdom of God. He was the ONLY person on earth at that time that lived by every word that was proceeding from the mouth of God. Everyone else in some measure fell short. Some disobeyed when God spoke and others didn't bother to even enquire of the Lord. Jesus said 'my meat is to go the will of Him that sent me'. This is the attitude of heart of those that are in the Kingdom of God. This is NON-Adamic nature. This is NON-flesh.

As a quick aside we have a definition of 'the flesh' given by Paul in Galatians 4:23, "...But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh." Ishmael is called a 'child of the flesh'. Why? Because Abraham refused to wait for the promise when it seemed to tarry and took matters into his own hands. His wife was the agent of temptation and he hearkened to her voice. To hearken to another voice (promise, revelation, vision, etc.) other than what God has said is to be moving in the flesh. Very simple. A sinner does not have the Spirit, but rather is moving in the spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2); so all that they can ever do is 'in the flesh' because they are not living according to God's will but some OTHER will. The Law, the Priests and the Prophets were agents of the revelation of God's will. This is how God broke into this world with His Kingdom- by giving folk opportunity to submit to the King and Judge of all the earth.

Back to John Baptist-

John the Baptist was the greatest man that ever lived (save Jesus) prior to Pentecost. Yet we have these important words from Jesus, "but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (Luke 7:28b) by implication John was NOT in the Kingdom of God. This Kingdom was proclaimed and was coming in the person of Jesus Christ. He was utterly submitted to God so that when He resisted the Devil in the wilderness, etc., the Devil fled from Him. Jesus also cast the devils out of many people. John the Baptist was martyred before he could undergo the One Baptism that he preached about. All the baptisms to this point in the OT, including John's Baptism of Repentance- were pointing to Paul's ONE Baptism. This is the archetype baptism. Not baptism in water, but baptism into the one body of Jesus Christ by the Spirit.

Jesus said that there was none greater born of women than John the Baptist; that is to say none that had only been born of the flesh (John 3). But the least in the Kingdom of God was going to be greater than John. Why? Because the people that would live under the New Covenant, in the Kingdom of God, 'IN Christ', would coem into that experience by the One great Baptism Paul preached in Ephesians 4. All other baptisms and the revelation they provide us with throughout the Old Testament point to this 'One Baptism' that John Baptist and Paul spoke of. I cannot possibly over emphasize this truth. Everything down through history has been moving to that one great epic reality.

Circumcised IN Christ

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:10-12)

Everything that Christ accomplished on the Cross, including dying to Sin itself, is appropriated to us that are baptized by the Spirit INTO Him. IF any man be in Christ he/she is a New Creature. The flesh is circumcised from our heart. This is why Paul could say emphatically, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

So we see then, that we have to get INTO Christ and STAY in Christ in order to enjoy all of the benefits that are made possible IN Him. If a person reverts back to their former manor of life and becomes carnal or 'double-minded' then they we need to come back to Christ in repentance and faith. In the words of Jesus to Ephesus, "repent and do the FIRST works." The first works are the works they did at first as outlined in Acts 19. If we build again the things we destroyed we make ourselves transgressors, etc.

No matter how great a work God does in man he/she can still choose to rebel. We are not given a circumcised new heart and a new spirit in such a way that we become automoton, but are to take the whole armout of God and the many admonishions in the N.T. in order to be victorious in this present evil world. The problem that ised to be 'within' is now, for those that are in Christ, 'without'. The temptations are external. We have 'learned from Christ' (Ephesians 2:20-21) how to live. Sorry so long. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 8:22Profile
rnieman
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Joined: 2008/10/24
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 Re:

Hi Phillip,

In a previous post you quoted the following in regards to Peter and Pentecost
“Mt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mt 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Mt 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.”

Then you stated:
“To answer your question; the apostles were saved as in the old testament, before Pentecost, but not saved as by birth and becoming the offspring of God our Father in the New Testament.”

I guess my question is where in your opinion did Peter stand before and after Pentecost? What did Pentecost do for Peter?

Blessings,
Russ

 2012/10/27 8:24Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:



by RobertW on 2012/10/27 5:22:42

[Quote]
When a person is baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit, were are taken out of Adam and are put 'IN' the Last Adam (Jesus Christ). So we are all either in the First Adam or the Last Adam. A person can be 'saved' (justified) and be in the First Adam, but they were not in the Kingdom of God. Not even John the Baptist was in the Kingdom of God.




I fully agree!

Quote:
Why? Because the Kingdom of God is for those that are living out the reality of the New Covenant through the One Baptism in the Spirit.



Perhaps since they must first see it upon being born again. Some never do to miss out on a perspective with a vision purposed to not only sustain but assist in "knowing" God. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent [of the born again who see it] take it by force". It is the "pearl of great price" thing.

 2012/10/27 9:01Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 5:22:42

Ho CroRef,

You asked:

Quote:
Oh, BTW, If a new heart given by God, why the need to circumcise it?



Circumcision of the heart and the topic of 'the flesh' and what exactly it is, have been discussed at great length here in the past, so I will only touch my understanding of it briefly.


Personally I don't see anyone receiving a new heart for the purpose of believing God nor one that needs circumcised for the same reason__circumcision being a spiritual reckoning for overcoming our flesh for establishing a singleness of eye __given the scriptures I have already submitted.

You have written much that by saying all you have I am still not sure where you stand on the issue of baptism[s]

Here is where I am:

Assuming salvation:

!. We are reconciled by Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Assuming the New birth that can be at the same time:

2. He then is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit that enables for ministry.

1 and 2 both carry with them the responsibility to faithfulness for what is expected. I see 1. as me choosing Jesus while 2. is Jesus choosing me because of what He sees in my heart, to have the confidence I will follow through [even eventually] to knowing Him as He desires. Having established myself in the new birth, do I believe for His Baptism?? Other way of asking the same question: Do I love Him that intimacy with Him is paramount in my heart? If it is then the Baptism of Jesus Christ per Acts 2 will be a certainty. I know this to be true, which is my answer.

Consider this passage still being experienced by many and for the reasons stated the which Paul spoke of as elementary truths:

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:. . . . ." Isaiah 28:9-12 (KJV) cf Heb. 6:1,2.

Check out Act 19:1-7 in this light as well acts 18:24-26 to see this is what was happening.

Thanks, Robert.





 2012/10/27 9:47Profile





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