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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by bearmaster on 2012/10/26 14:13:32

[Not to complicate tbe discussion, which by the way is good. But was Abraham born again? I posted previously about reading in Romans. Tbe text says he believed God and it was credited or counted to him as righteousness.

For that matter were the O.T saints born again?]

The new birth from above could not happen until after the death, burial, resurrection and glorification of Jesus. Unless I am mistaken, that is an absolute.

 2012/10/26 17:38Profile









 Re: Croref

Oookaay. So exactly how was one saved in tbe O.T. Are we making a distinction between faith and tbe new birth?

Bearnaster

 2012/10/26 17:53









 Re:

I guess tbe question in ny mind is if one like Abraham was saved by faith. Did he have to be born again? Could an O. T. saint be saved by faith and not be born again?

Bearmaster.

 2012/10/26 17:57
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Croref,

Let me answer this question in sections.

Quote:
I mean if God gave us a new heart should it not be expected that it be perfect toward Him.



I would answer this way; the New Covenant provides for those that are 'in Christ' (having been baptized into Him by the Spirit) a new heart and spirit. Paul takes it a step farther and states, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor. 2:16) God's own Holy Spirit comes in to take up residence so that the essential nature of the person is changed; the old heart of stone is removed and a new heart of flesh replaces it. (Ezekiel 36:26-27) The consequence of this is that Paul could state, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. " (Philippians 2:13) The characteristic of this person is that he/she is no longer a 'sinner' by nature but a 'saint' by nature. He/she may act uncharacteristically or against his/her new nature in an act of sin, but this is against his/her nature and does not mean the nature has changed.

We are new creatures but we are new human creatures. We still have human desires. Temptation is an appeal to the intellect to fulfill a good natural desire in a sinful way. This is where I see the trouble being. Some day the world will be free from sin and we will receive a new body that is 'spiritual', that is, it will be free from various characteristics and desires that are necessary for this present world. Procreative desire will not exist in the new spiritual body, for example.

So yes I believe God can make a sinner a saint by baptizing them into Christ and expect that that individual will have a heart that is right towards Him. We can walk together in agreement because we share the same essential moral nature as Christ.

Quote:
Was God giving a new heart to individual man or was it the nation of Israel He was alluding to? Under the circumstances mentioned, I think it was the latter otherwise there would be no mentioning by Peter, John & co. for the need of Christian's cleaning theirs up.



I see the answer as God giving a new heart to individuals within the nation of Israel who had turned to the Lord so that the vail had been removed in their personal life. (2 Cor 3:16) Paul was such a person. I don't see the promises of God in the New Covenant as eschatological, but presently active. An entire generation of Jews moved in this reality as the first believers and born again Saints. Later the Gentiles were added, but not as an afterthought of God, but as His ultimate plan.

I see then the whole Body of Christ as the One New Man (Ephesians 2:15); where there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) Non-Jews are made partakers of the promises through the New Covenant, as the plan of God 'in Christ' was from the foundation of the World. (Ephesians 1:4ff) Paul reminds us in Romans 2:29, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

In my view, the reason why the Saints have struggles that have to be dealt with is because we live in a sinful world that is vying for our affections. If Adam lived on earth today, having NOT fallen, he would still have to deal with the temptations we face. Why? Because they are designed to take advantage of human nature and good, natural, human desires. Jesus lived as an UNfallen man (the last Adam) and defeated sin in this present evil world. He is our example as to how to navigate this sinful world. If we are in Christ we are dead to sin- because He died to sin. He defeated the Devil when he came to tempt and taught us to live by every word that is proceeding from the mouth of God, not bread alone. This implies a close walk with God and a willingness to listen to and obey the Holy Spirit when He deals with us. Hope that helps explain my view. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/26 19:37Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We then have to define what we mean when we say 'have not the Spirit' in Romans 8. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b)



I was hoping we could have discussed this point further, as this is only half of the answer in dealing with Romans 8.

It is my view that we have to distinguish justification by faith and genuine regeneration. The disciples were certainly Christ's and He lost none of them save the son of perdition, etc. But there is a greater sense that one can be Christ's and it is to be 'IN' Christ. The Disciples were followers, etc., but they were not yet made sons of God. This is important because God has determined to make man in His image and likeness. He has never left off that original design. So the Disciples were Christ's and I believe they were justified by faith, but God was taking them to a whole new level.

I'm going out on a limb here because WKIP (we know in part), but we are told that, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14) Paul is saying that the criteria for recognizing the 'sons of God', that is now possible through the indwelling Spirit, is that they are 'led of the Holy Spirit'. He is not suggesting potential or privilege, but reality and actuality.

In Romans 8:29, Paul is further saying that it is the actual indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that identifies someone as 'His' (Christ's). I see this as 'His' in the sense of redemption (justification) AND regeneration (sanctification). The Lord can look at the regenerate and say that we are His children by Spiritual birth. We are 'His' in the same way we are our earthly father's. We are not merely slaves that have been purchased with a price, but have been made sons. This brings to pass the saying in Hebrews 2:11-13:

For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.” And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

Hope that explains further. Blessings.



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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/26 20:17Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
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 Re:

hi, this will be the 65th post on this matter. people are going to hell for lack of knowlege of the gospel as we sit and ponder this question that if we had the exact answer it would not change one thing in the world.we need to quit being so nitpicking about this or the end times or anything else that we have no control over and go knock on a neighbors door and offer friendship,love and the gospel and any help he or she might need that we could meet in Jesus name.jimp

 2012/10/27 1:07Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

rnieman wrote: Quote

"""by rnieman on 2012/10/26 9:14:16

Hi Phillip,

I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?

Joel 2 is speaking of pentecost to come and the baptism of the HS, which we read came to pass in the book of Acts.

Russ"""

John 1:12-14 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

How did they receive Jesus?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word (Logos)of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

What seed was born again in us, who was that Seed? The Logos, the devine expression of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

When the Light was with the apostles He could not be born again in them, the same with the Holy Spirit, as long as the Christ was with them the Comforter promised to be in them could not be.

He said He must go so the promised Comforter could come and be not just with them but in them. He, Jesus Christ will not leave us comfortless either, He will come again and be born again in those that have the faith of the Son of God to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unto salvation. The spirit of satan our and the Spirit of the Son of God born again in us, NOW, we are the sons of God, by birth and the Spirit of Jesus Christ in us.

To answer your question; the apostles were saved as in the old testament, before Pentecost, but not saved as by birth and becoming the offspring of God our Father in the New Testament.

Acts 17:28-31 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Bringing the Holy Spirit with Him the apostles became the offspring of God by baptism into One Spirit, New Testament salvation. Paul fulfilling the Word of God.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The Father's offspring by the incorruptable Seed of the Father in me, Jesus Christ, the Hope of Glory.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/10/27 1:28Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

I wrote:
I mean if God gave us a new heart should it not be expected that it be perfect toward Him. :unquote


Re:Reply To This Post |

Hi Croref,

Let me answer this question in sections.

Quote:
I would answer this way; the New Covenant provides for those that are 'in Christ' (having been baptized into Him by the Spirit) a new heart and spirit. Paul takes it a step farther and states, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor. 2:16) God's own Holy Spirit comes in to take up residence so that the essential nature of the person is changed; the old heart of stone is removed and a new heart of flesh replaces it. (Ezekiel 36:26-27) The consequence of this is that Paul could state, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. " (Philippians 2:13) The characteristic of this person is that he/she is no longer a 'sinner' by nature but a 'saint' by nature. He/she may act uncharacteristically or against his/her new nature in an act of sin, but this is against his/her nature and does not mean the nature has changed.___:unquote

First of all there is much you say in this I fully agree with especially having to do with our "nature" either old and new. It is in this undertaking to understand I believe we must see it is not our "nature" we deal with but our flesh that makes its demands on our soul. 1. I don't believe our soul can deal with two natures. It is either one or the other, the old or the new but, not both. When there is confusion arises consider it being by "double mindedness". In capsule form: Our soul is the battleground. It is "US" and "to whom we yield ourselves, his servant we are". Ring a bell? James says nothing about any new heart here:

"Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain [soul] both yield salt water and fresh." James 3:12 (KJV)

Accompany that with what Paul writes:

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." Romans 6:13 (KJV)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16 (KJV)

"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Romans 6:19 (KJV)

With that I believe we can see that the new birth is not any gift of a new heart but a new clean, pure, nature from above enabled by the Holy Spirit given and purposed to remain upright in Christ. As we as infants, learn the Father per John 17:3, in becoming His son is a, surety. This is no different than what the young Jesus' life was all about before He was sent into the world. Not only did He "know" what the issues were but was prepared to "love not His Life even unto death". Without such a vision imputed to us by seeking God with our whole "heart", we will be found weak from wanting. Consider the OT saints who were mighty in God without any of what I am referring to; with only a promise. Abraham had a heroic faith! And David? . . a man after God's own Heart!

Consider also the below passages that have it as redeemed, saved man receiving instructions as to what the issues are:

"Who gave himself for us, that he "might redeem" us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:14 (KJV)

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and "purify your hearts", ye double minded." James 4:8 (KJV)

Question: Again, I ask does God not give that which is pure? Would He give less? Can He give less? Being God, obviously your answer must be, NO. Then why the necessity to make our hearts pure?

Peter wrote this, Speaking of Jesus:

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times [for you],
Who by him [you] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope [might] be in God.
Seeing [you] have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that [you] love one another with a [pure heart] fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives [in] and abides [with you] forever." 1 Peter 1:20-23 (KJV)

Can we see a love affair; an intimate relationship in that? Will He not give respond to us by the new birth of the Holy Spirit Who desires only to love Him from us? __As I write this I am convicted__


Quote:
We are new creatures but we are new human creatures. We still have human desires. Temptation is an appeal to the intellect to fulfill a good natural desire in a sinful way. :unquote

We deal with our flesh which the venue for sin to our soul, if we permit it. "Resist the devil and he will flee". Adam should have understood that a little better.

Quote:
This is where I see the trouble being. Some day the world will be free from sin and we will receive a new body that is 'spiritual', that is, it will be free from various characteristics and desires that are necessary for this present world. Procreative desire will not exist in the new spiritual body, for example.

So yes I believe God can make a sinner a saint by baptizing them into Christ and expect that that individual will have a heart that is right towards Him. We can walk together in agreement because we share the same essential moral nature as Christ. :unquote

Indeed, He can but not without the vision imputed to us we must preserve. From the KJV read Eph.1:1. Take note the insightful conjunctive: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)

What can we take from that except to see saints as students reaching for the complete substance of faithfulness in Christ. We are made white by the Blood of the Lamb and remain so by the continual washing of the water of the Word; the commandments and Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

I see then the whole Body of Christ as the One New Man (Ephesians 2:15); where there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) Non-Jews are made partakers of the promises through the New Covenant, as the plan of God 'in Christ' was from the foundation of the World. (Ephesians 1:4ff) Paul reminds us in Romans 2:29, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. :unquote

I agree wholeheartedly and by that understanding we can see the [singular] man-child in Rev 12 as being that multi-membered Body.

Oh, BTW, If a new heart given by God, why the need to circumcise it? . . :0)

Thank you, Robert. I can't remember when I have enjoyed an exchange more than this one. You have made some good points.
I pray, as we see time running out, this one will be one of many that we might rid ourselves of the petty bickering and get serious with God for much needed adjustments to our pet doctrines..Thank you.

Lov'in Jesus,

Cross Reference

 2012/10/27 3:05Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by jimp on 2012/10/26 22:07:12

hi, this will be the 65th post on this matter. people are going to hell for lack of knowlege of the gospel as we sit and ponder this question that if we had the exact answer it would not change one thing in the world.we need to quit being so nitpicking about this or the end times or anything else that we have no control over and go knock on a neighbors door and offer friendship,love and the gospel and any help he or she might need that we could meet in Jesus name.jimp :unquote

Unless we "are" before we "do" what good will "doing" be worth? If we go before being sent, will Jesus go with us?

 2012/10/27 3:24Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 17:17:05

Quote:
We then have to define what we mean when we say 'have not the Spirit' in Romans 8. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b)



The "IN' part being fulfilled in John 20:22!

[Quote]
I was hoping we could have discussed this point further, as this is only half of the answer in dealing with Romans 8.


Hope that explains further. Blessings.


Excellent Post!__All of it!

Question: What can we say must be the outward evidence of the new birth?

 2012/10/27 3:33Profile





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