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 Re:

Quote: How does one give birth [awaken to] when there has been no conception? END OF QUOTE

Conception is when one comes to Christ and is given the power to `become` a son of God - do you agree?

 2012/10/26 15:09
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Hi Phillip,

I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?

Joel 2 is speaking of pentecost to come and the baptism of the HS, which we read came to pass in the book of Acts.

Russ

 2012/10/26 15:14Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Coref,

Quote:
Isn't that what we call being, "born again"? If we are correct in that then it only follows we become part of the Body of Christ __and this holds true that: ". . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)



I think this is ok by way of logical deduction, but I'm not convinced this is what happens biblically. We have several concepts we have to define. The first is 'regeneration'. The trouble with that word is that it is only used twice in the New Testament:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

We have first Matthew 19:28 and I think there is a clue here when Jesus says, "when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory," This is my working definition of regeneration; when the son of man is sitting on the throne IN man. In every heart there is a throne, when Christ is sitting on it then we can assume we have been regenerated. This then agrees with the imagery of Titus 3:5, which is the language of priesthood. It is literally the 'laver of regeneration.' The priest would wash before going in to the holy place. The holy place and the holy of holies is all of one now because of the torn vail. The renewing prepares us for the presence and reality of the King.

We then have to define what we mean when we say 'have not the Spirit' in Romans 8. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b)

Just how I kind of see it playing out.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/26 15:17Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?



This question was not addressed to me, but I want to say categorically that justification is by grace through faith and is independent of what we are referring to here. Many great saints of God in the OT etc., did not know the blessings of the New Covenant, but were justified by faith and are 'saved'.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/26 15:20Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:


by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 12:09:11

Quote: How does one give birth [awaken to] when there has been no conception? END OF QUOTE

Conception is when one comes to Christ and is given the power to `become` a son of God - do you agree?
____________________


Thanks Krautfrau!

Here is the passage: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12 (KJV)

"Receiving Him" is to explain John 20:22, doncha think?

 2012/10/26 16:07Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 12:20:26

Quote:
I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?



This question was not addressed to me, but I want to say categorically that justification is by grace through faith and is independent of what we are referring to here. Many great saints of God in the OT etc., did not know the blessings of the New Covenant, but were justified by faith and are 'saved'.
_________________

Absolutely Brother!!

Question: Do you also think they were born again??

 2012/10/26 16:09Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 12:17:55

Hi Coref,

Quote:
Isn't that what we call being, "born again"? If we are correct in that then it only follows we become part of the Body of Christ __and this holds true that: ". . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)



I think this is ok by way of logical deduction, but I'm not convinced this is what happens biblically. We have several concepts we have to define. The first is 'regeneration'. The trouble with that word is that it is only used twice in the New Testament:
_____________________________

Because I believe a distinction can be made between the new birth by the Holy Spirit and initial salvation by one coming to Christ, doesn't mean I don't believe one is not saved unless born again. Therefore, when we read Him saying, "whosoever will let Him come unto Me", doesn't negate this in my thinking. However, I see being born again as being where Jesus does the choosing, not unlike He chose His Disciples. Having declared this to be what I believe, I see being born again as having a price for which one is told to count the cost. Why? Because that price is one's very life. If you consider this to be accurate thinking then the man-child mentioned in Rev 12 will make better sense to us. Thanks!

 2012/10/26 16:40Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Croref,

Quote:
Question: Do you also think they were born again??



My understanding of the scriptures centers at the cross event and subsequent outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. In other words, the New Covenant is an exceedingly better covenant established upon better promises than anything previous. This covenant was set in force, according to the writer to the Hebrews, after the death of the Testator (Christ). It could not be in play before.

So I view the born again experience (i.e. regeneration) the primary promise of the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 spoke of this covenant and elsewhere where God intended to give a heart of flesh and a new spirit. He wanted to make His abode in man (Isaiah 66:1ff). Everything in the Old Testament with all of it's revelation and types and shadows was moving towards Acts 2:1ff when God would make a glorious entrance INTO man. This is the great sermon of Stephan in Acts 7. God did not dwell in temples made with hands in the sense He wanted to dwell in man.

God has only ever occupied one Temple at a time while on earth. First the (1) tabernacle, (2) then Solomon's, (3) the Zerubbabel's (though we have no indication of the glory as previously), (3 and 1/2) Herods expansion of Zerubbabel's, (4) Jesus Christ and the temple of His body, (5) The Church corporate with its livings stones the people, that are individual 'temples' of the Holy Spirit.

God has been moving towards #5 all through history and it is my view that it is His perfect will; i.e. the regeneration (palengenesis) He has willed since the fall. If that makes sense.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/26 16:53Profile









 Re:

Not to complicate tbe discussion, which by the way is good. But was Abraham born again? I posted previously about reading in Romans. Tbe text says he believed God and it was credited or counted to him as righteousness.

For that matter were the O.T saints born again?

Bearnaster

 2012/10/26 17:13
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 13:53:50

[My understanding of the scriptures centers at the cross event and subsequent outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. In other words, the New Covenant is an exceedingly better covenant established upon better promises than anything previous. This covenant was set in force, according to the writer to the Hebrews, after the death of the Testator (Christ). It could not be in play before.]

Which speaks of the new covenant being based upon redemption___the new basis of life for a totally new creation.

[So I view the born again experience (i.e. regeneration) the primary promise of the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 spoke of this covenant and elsewhere where God intended to give a heart of flesh and a new spirit.]

Was God giving a new heart to individual man or was it the nation of Israel He was alluding to? Under the circumstances mentioned, I think it was the latter otherwise there would be no mentioning by Peter, John & co. for the need of Christian's cleaning theirs up. I mean if God gave us a new heart should it not be expected that it be perfect toward Him? Thanks Robert!

 2012/10/26 17:35Profile





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