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But it is in any event a blessing to be sharing and receiving in this way the things of God.
Amen dear brother. It has been a pleasure to discuss it all. I pray the Lord will continue to give us more light on these great subjects. As Paul once said, 'we know in part...' (WKIP). Blessings. Robert
Robert Wurtz II
| 2012/10/31 10:52||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: |
1. Do you believe that a person is baptized into Christ when they have the experience outlined in the book of Acts, which is commonly referred to as the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". NOTE: I am saying baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, not INTO. I have read several people here change these words to read, "baptized INTO the Holy Spirit".
2. If the above answer is yes, and I think you have said this many times, are you therefore stating that when a person receives a similar "Acts 2" outpouring of the Holy Spirit in their life, that it is at this point they are born again?
3. Do you also believe that a person can be saved (justified) but not yet born again? And the way they become born again is to be "baptized into Christ" which in your view is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost.
4. Do you also believe that those people who are saved by faith are not yet born again by the Holy Spirit? That step one is being saved and step 2 is being born again? And do you believe that the way a person knows that they have arrived at step 2, "born again" is by having an unmistakable, distinct experience akin to book of Acts 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
5. Do you also believe that those who are saved by faith, but not yet born again are not actually a part of the Kingdom of God?
6. Do you also believe that all those who are saved by faith, will automatically become "born again" eventually because they are the elect and are predestined to enter the Kingdom of God?
Perhaps this forum thread is coming to a close soon. I do not want to contribute too much into some of the profitable discussions but wanted to make my view clear for some saints. I want to respond quickly to this dear brothers questions above in relation to the holy spirit and salvation.
1. Yes and No, When a person is born-again and experiences a new birth experience he does receive the holy spirit immediately yet a more manifest baptism of the spirit experience can happen afterwards. I believe each believer will receive these baptisms throughout their walk with Christ the terminology is al the same: Baptism of the Spirit, Filling of the Spirit, etc
2. It can be their conversion experience but for many they will not speak in tongues but still be genuinely born-again of the Spirit. A more clear indicator of being born-again is 2 timothy 2:19 holiness of life: Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
3. No, if a person is justified he is saved, if he is justified he has the new birth experience, if he is justified he has the holy spirit.
4. No, if a person has saving faith he has the new birth and the holy spirit.
5. No, if a person is saved by faith he is born again and if he is saved by faith he is part of the kingdom of God already.
6. No, being saved by faith is being born-again, it is a synonomus term. And if you are born-again you are the elect and predestinated in Christ for all the promises of God.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2012/10/31 13:25||Profile|
| Re: |
Travis - Thank you for your insights into these doctrines from your own experience. It was helpul to understand the background. How you stated your understnding of salvation and regeneration is also how I see it.
Awakened has highlightened some important concerns regarding the 'one baptism' position that RobertW has laid out.
| 2012/10/31 14:29||Profile|
| Re: |
Heydave: Thank you brother for the encouragement. I agree totally with Robert when he said W.K.I.P.. We indeed know in part. I think I am pretty secure in my understanding of many doctrines. And yet, I am always challenged by other believers and have, at times, had to admit that I was a little misguided in my ideas and opinions. So it goes with all of us as every joint supplies and the body grows up into maturity. When we can have candid discussions as the one that has happened here, it sharpens us and helps us to grow. I have been blessed by this thread. My wife and I left the meeting last night having a lengthy discussion of the nature of salvation, sanctification, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the nature of these works. Yet we did not have to have the mechanics all figured out in order to put faith in the work of Christ for our salvation, and we knew beyond a doubt that we were born again and children of God as His Spirit bore witness in our hearts. Praise God for that!!!!
| 2012/10/31 19:58||Profile|
| Re: |
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore <dio> I give <gnorizo> you <humin> to understand <gnorizo>, that <hoti> no man <oudeis> speaking <laleo> by ((<en>)) the Spirit <pneuma> of God <theos> calleth <lego> Jesus <Iesous> accursed <anathema>: and <kai> that no man <oudeis> can <dunamai> say <epo> that Jesus <Iesous> is the Lord <kurios>, but <ei me> by <en> the Holy <hagios> Ghost <pneuma>.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.
See Greek 1519
See Greek 1537
Between these two; Strong's Greek Dictionary
Search for G1519 in KJVSL
eiV eis ice
a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:--(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), ...ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).
Strong's Greek Dictionary
Search for G1537 in KJVSL
ek ek ek or ex ex
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.
Not just by the Spirit but "in", and incompassing all that the Holy Spirit is and does. The new birthed or rebirthed or born again from above etc. is the incorruptable Seed of the Father the living Word, Jesus Christ the Lord, by which no man can say that Jesus Christ is all the above primary prepositions with all their tenses pointing to the Christ that is born again in us and being able to say that Jesus Christ is Lord by the Holy Spirit that has to be in us also or we cannot say He is Lord.
The whole bucket of Grace by Faith is of God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Signed, sopken, by the Chief Justice, sealed by His spoken decreed One The Holy Spirit, this believer is justified, saved, made righteous by the life of Christ birthed in him, all wisdom given by the MInd of Christ and the great Teacher the Parakleet the Holy Spirit bringing all to mind what Jesus has Said and even the things we don't understand, He the Holy Spirit will reveal all things to us. Making us by the Decree of God the Father by His Seed, (sperma) of God birthing His Son Jesus Christ in us, of whom we now have His Spirit as our Spirit and His MInd as our Mind.
This is all done at one time or in the first place if the Holy Spirit was not given at rebirth we could not even call Jesus Christ the Son of God or Lord, for this can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit, sent from God the Father by the Son's Prayer, answered beyond our greatest dreams.
Sanctification begins at birth and ends in eternity in the Father's House as His purchased, paid for offspring and sons' and daughters of God our Father and joint heirs with His only begotten Son and temple of His Holy Spirit, ever learning and Loving God.
When God decided to dump the whole bucket of Grace through Faith in this sinner, I received all that God will use to make me a son fit for His House on resurrection day.
Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
All of this is what we are baptized into One Spirit His Body the Church, it does not come in parts and pieces, it is all there at birth, but the Holy Spirit sanctifies and teaches and uses each one as He sees' fit. Each part of the Body just as God wants it.
In Christ: IN The Holy Spirit, and the Father making His abode also with us IN the Son, The whole God Head in us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit: I truly am an offspring of My Father and God: His plan before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4. Amen
WOW, what a plan; Amen
| 2012/11/1 2:05||Profile|
| Re: |
Admin Greg said:
Quote: I'll probably get black balled for saying this, but I am shocked that you would write that.
When a person is born-again and experiences a new birth experience he does receive the Holy Spirit immediately yet a more manifest baptism of the Spirit experience can happen afterwards.
The "Certain disciples" that Paul found while trekking around Ephesus didn't even ask them if they believed in Jesus. He went right to the heart of the matter, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?".
He didn't say, "I know that we all receive a measure of the Holy Spirit when we repent and give our lives over to the Lord, but I am not talking about that first workings, I am talking about the second blessing, have you received that?"
He didn't say that, but that is certainly what your saying.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
They no doubt had told Paul that they were baptized, hence the question, "Unto what then were you baptized?".
Notice how Paul questions them, he is basically saying, If you were baptized, where is the Holy Ghost? And they said, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost".
If those certain disciples had received even a portion of the Holy Ghost for their so called "born again experience", why ask the question if they received the Holy Ghost?
Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to ask for the Holy Spirit as Jesus gave the examples when He says,
Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.
| 2012/11/1 11:21|
| Re: |
by Approved on 2012/11/1 8:21:23
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Paul was asking if they had received the "Baptism of Jesus Christ", JTB spoke of.
Since Paul knew they were disciples who were not to begin their ministry without receiving it that he might have wondered, 'How come you did and gotten this far without the anointing'. . "Unto what then were you baptized?" to which they replied: ". . Unto John's baptism""And we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost".
Regardless of whether or not these disciples received anything before hand is of little relevance when considering their obedience to what they assumed was the message of John, before anyone was born again, and certainly before Pentecost. This is what Peter said that makes me believe when Paul laid hands on them, there was no hesitancy in the Lord for what then instantly happened:
". . . we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM". Acts 5:32 (KJV)
| 2012/11/1 11:53||Profile|
| Re: |
Quote: Perhaps not brother. Mark my reply is not directed at you, I am merely using your words from your post. :-)
Perhaps we will never really know the answer to when each of these groups was actually born again/saved.
Now, lets turn the tables around a bit.
Most everyone believes that when one believes, repents, and gives their life over to the Lord that they are born again.
Lets also say that one is born again without having received the Holy Ghost. Taking the words of Admin Greg, he said that "being saved by faith is being born-again". But that doesn't mean that one receives the Holy Spirit.
It's only an assumption that the Holy Spirit is there upon being born again, as is those that don't subscribe to the baptism of Promise to be the born again experience as being an assumption. Both of us see two different workings, yet one of us is wrong, or we could be both wrong, or we could be both right.
Lets say that I am in complete agreement, we are one in our union regarding this matter.
Now, Lets say, IF being born again is by a silent working of the Holy Ghost, then (here is my question) why do those who are in these groups do not seek the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?
When I mention the Baptism of the Holy Ghost among the Baptists lets say, and I will use the vernacular, "Second Blessing", why do the eyes roll, or a non verbal disgust? If the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the "Second Blessing", why is it not sought amongst this group?
| 2012/11/1 13:27|
| Re: To sum up and what I have learned from starting this thread|
Brothers and sisters,
Since I started this thread I believe that I have a responsibility to speak to it further and maybe bring this to a close. I want to leave these final comments, NOT to correct any others here but to leave a clear trail of sound doctrine to any who might stumble onto my thread in the days and maybe even years to come, especially newly saved believers.
I asked the question about the apostles and the Ephesus disciples as to when they were born again. I never imagined I would see so much vociferous discussion about this topic.
1) Salvation = Born Again. What I have learned is that there are unorthodox views that separate justification by faith (salvation) from being born again and considers these as two separate states. With the second state, born again, being the state whereby a person enters the Kingdom of God. It is my view as well as almost every single preacher on this website, that this is wrong teaching. That in fact that salvation and born again are one and the same thing. Dear believer, if you have repented and are trusting by faith in the finished work of the Christ Jesus on the cross and have the witness that you are saved but come here and read these unorthodox views, I pray that you will not be confused and fearful that you are not yet born again. Let me say it plainly. If this be the case, and if you are SAVED by faith in Christ Jesus, you are indeed born again. You do not need to wait until you receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon you as experienced several times by believers in the book of Acts.
Here is a helpful article by Zac Poonen: http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/a_clear_gospel_message.php
2) The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. After or at the same time a person is born again, and only once their heart is sufficiently prepared, the Lord Jesus Himself wants to Baptize them WITH the Holy Spirit. Some will try to teach that this is the same thing as being baptized INTO Christ, which happens when we are born again and become children of God. They are two separate things and should never be confused. The words used by Jesus are for those who are saved to go on with God and receive a Baptism by the Holy Spirit. This would be the Spirit coming UPON the disciples, not into the disciples per se. We use the term today, "baptized" but as brother Zac teaches so clearly, this is not what the original text suggests...it actually means to be immersed by the Holy Spirit, as in standing under the deluge of the water fall. Both these brothers state that this is the Holy Spirit coming UPON and should not be confused with the new birth.
Here are some helpful sermons and articles:
Paris Reidhead: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2969
Zac Poonen: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=23346
3) God has much more for us than we can possibly understand. Paris Reidhead said it so well, in dispelling the wrong teaching that when we are born again, we get all there is to get of God. This is from the sermon I pasted above starting at about the 7 minute mark.
"I was told years ago at since the Spirit of God came into us at the new birth and since God is a person we got all there is to get of God at salvation (new birth)...and the consequence was that we would hear something like this ' since a person cannot come in parts, you got all there was to get of God, all He is asking now is just for Him to get more of you. I never get around to asking the question, since the Spirit of God cannot come in parts, how can I go in parts, how can I give more of me?
Regardless, that was what we were taught and that was what we preached. And it is quite enough to preach it as long as your heart is not hungering for God. But when the Spirit of God begins to stir you with a hunger from Himself and for Himself, and you go to the Word of God and begin to study the word and read the Word and find out what the Word has to say, you discover some interesting things.
For instance, you discover that the Holy Spirit was in Christ, for if He wasnt then He wasnt God. For from His birth he was indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead bodily. So that at the very time that the Holy Spirit was IN our Lord Jesus Christ, He came UPON our Lord Jesus Christ.
Well what do we learn? We learn that you cannot apply those rules that are true of human personality...to God. You see, God the Holy Spirit IN Christ while He came UPON Christ
once and for all does away with that teaching that says that when you were born again you got all there was to get of God. You didnt. Oh well in a sense you did - everything that belongs to the children of God became yours in that sense that you were born into His family, but it didnt all come to you at once and we will discover that there are many blessing that, after weve been baptized with the Holy Spirit, that God has provided for them that love Him, and we will have to meet Him in terms of that particular need and that particular desire.
But still, the point that I'm making is that the dispensationists of which I was one, very active and vociferous - were quite incorrect when we said that since He comes at the new birth you get all there is to get of God. Not true.
Now, in summary. All of this is great doctine, but we must yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit and hunger after Him. As we do that, the Holy Spirit will continue to be poured out over us and we will continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit, so that we continue to live a Godly life and so that we will be endured with power for service - to take the gospel of the Lord Jesus into all the world.
| 2012/11/1 13:53|
| Re: |
Why did Jesus call Paul? To reveal that He Jesus was in Paul that Paul might reveal this mystery to the Church, the body of Christ. This mystery that no one knew, even though the born again mystery had already happened at Pentecost, yet they did not have an understanding in their minds what had happened. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, they who were there and saw and felt the wind and saw the tongues of fire, knew something had happened, the Holy Spirit working in them gave all those standing there the unction by them speaking to all who were standing there, understanding in their own language which those Galalians were speaking which they knew was not possible. Yet, it was true what speaking could be understood in their own tongue.
Then Peter; Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
They had no understanding of Christ in them or what had happened or who the Holy Spirit was. Only those (Peter)that heard Jesus pray to the Father, of whom the baptism would come from. "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Thus the question by Paul "have you received the Holy Spirit? If they believed who does it take for them to believe that Jesus is Lord? Jesus chose Paul to reveal all this to those that were being added to the Church daily.
Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Then after three years with Jesus Himself, Paul went straight to Peter to reveal the truth of the Holy Spirit and Christ in Him.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Then the revelation, the Mystery.
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Our spirit is saved completely, for it is the Spirit of Christ in us. Our soul/mind is being saved by the teaching of the Holy Spirit in us as with Paul revealing this to Peter and all who would listern the Myster revealed. The renweing.
Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by ((((the renewing of your mind,)))) that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
What God has done in Christ has to be revealed to whom it is done, or no one would ever know that we have the Holy Spirit and the incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ in us. That is why Paul was given "my gospel" to reveal it to God's own children.
Ac 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Ac 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
In Christ: Phillip
| 2012/11/1 14:06||Profile|