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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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 Re:

Quote:
I was reading last night the small book about the history of what happened around the time of Azusa Street Revival.

A very interesting read.....

http://www.finestofthewheat.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Rejected_Blessing.php murrcoir




Thanks for this link brother. Its a really good read and helps no end with understanding some of the points in this thread which I have no knowledge of. Really worth reading. I am going to read it again later today and then again some more.

 2012/10/31 6:39
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Ok__I said I was finished. I lied . . .))

I couldn't take it any longer__just kidding.

Lets get a few overlooked basics out of the way:

1. Jesus was not sent to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. __ How's that? because, the righteous were already "JUSTIFIED". Upon their death they would not have gone to hell’s torment. Obviously then, we can understand it was entirely possible for fallen man to be righteous in the sense of finding favor with God__entirely possible for him to have faith in God which he must have had in order to find such favor from Him. [cf Gen.4:26] Too what degree he was, placed him in God's 'corral' of those God might choose for His righteous acts. Proof of this: God never chose an unrighteous man to perform a righteous deed__nor could He..

2. Jesus died to redeem righteous-justified man. How? By His shed blood on Calvary__plus nothing. Where does this leave sinful man except he repent and turn from his ungodly ways to faith in God?__ redemption [justification?] will not be his.

OT fact: Though recognizing the "Hand" of God in His life and the activity of the Holy Spirit, by Nathan the Prophet, David was not full of the Holy Spirit with "supernatural" faith that accompanies it in any continual manner, as none were before Pentecost, JTB notwithstanding. Jesus uses JTB as an example in pressing the issue of what it means to be found in the Kingdom of God. Having such “divine unction” before Pentecost is never seen as a baptism in the scriptures.

Question: Given the above, why was David said, by God, to be a man after His own heart?? No continual God walking with him. No indwelling, and definitely no "Priestly Garment" placed "UPON" him....And David expressed it in his Psalms from himself__plus nothing.

This is salvation as God intends it to be: "And this is life eternal, that they might "know" thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV)

Short of this understanding, and what the 'process' of learning Father brings with it, "the righteous will scarcely be saved". Why? Lack of vision. Lack of understanding to "know" our salvation is centered in God__irrespective of traditional "preaching" to the contrary.

Try this to your thinking:

1. We go to Jesus for salvation. 2. Upon the "cleansing of our house" He will watch [foreknowledge also a determining factor] to see if we begin to fill it with the knowledge of Himself and upon the "witness of it", from His perspective not ours, will He choose those who mean business. The rest will be saved perhaps, hopefully, "as be fire".

The Baptism of Jesus Christ is that which Jesus will do per His foreknowledge of that one seeking it. In putting it this way I draw from my own life experiences in the "classical Pentecostal" realm of Spiritual activity. Some received with evidence while others didn't. I always wondered, why? Now, I believe I know. cf Heb 6:4-6. In this, I can see God's hand of protection for those weak in faith and in a constant need of discipling.

In replying to this, if anyone does, I hope you will take it point by point.

 2012/10/31 7:43Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Awakened,

Quote:
I think I have already heard you state yes to most of these above in subsequent posts but I am truly wanting to understand with clarity your position, without a whole lot more explanation.



Per question:

1. Yes. There is no other reference to being baptized with or in the Spirit in the Book of Acts or the latter parts of the Gospels that would correlate to being baptized into His one body, baptized into His death, or buried with Him in baptism. Paul says there is one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). The Ephesian twelve had had two water baptisms and one Spirit baptism. It is my view that there is only one Baptism to which all others are types. That Baptism, in my view, took place on the Day of Pentecost. If we make up a fourth baptism, that I have viewed as a 'secret' baptism then we have done so in similar way to those that invented the secret rapture.

2. Yes. But born from above is a better use of words. The Spirit was sent down from above, it was poured out from above, hence they that are in Christ bu Spirit Baptism have been born from above.

3. Yes. Salvation is, always has been, and always will be by grace through faith. This is why Paul spends so much time with it in Romans. He has to lay the foundation. We can't allow ourselves to get bored with the details. He DRIVES home justification by faith to the point to where it was logical to ask the question, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Romans 6:1) So he took 5 full chapters laying a FIRM foundation on which to rest the rest of his doctrine. Otherwise, there is no way we can begin to focus on Romans 6:2ff. The bar is set too high to have a low view of justification.

4. Not exactly. I believe Paul's encounter with the Ephesian twelve in Acts 19 is our clear and unmistakable guide. This was many years after Pentecost and Paul had been long in the tooth preaching and evangelizing. He was solid in his understanding of the Gospel. What did he find? He found believers that had repented 'John Baptist style', but his question to them was simple, "Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE you believed." The question implies knowledge of an experience. He did not tell them they 'had' received the Spirit as happens regularly to the millions and millions that comes to Christ, Paul ASKED them. We may need to do as when we were kids and write sentences 100X on the blackboard "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" until we understand that this is what Paul would have done and is not what many do today. They are told they have the Spirit through a process of logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

In my view, these believers in Christ, having repented and cast off and confessed all known sin, were JUSTIFIED by faith as surely as Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist or the thief on the cross. When Paul laid hands on them they received the Spirit, that is, they were baptized into the Body of Christ, buried with him in baptism unto death, dead to sin, no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, had BEGUN in the Spirit (Galatians 3:3) and could now bear the Fruit of the Spirit unto holiness and be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God of whom Christ would not have to be ashamed to call them brethren. (Hebrews 2:11).

5. Yes. The Kingdom of God is the place where God is King. It is God's domain. When a person is in the Kingdom of God they do not struggle to obey God. It is their essential nature to obey. The will of God is done IN THEM as it is in Heaven. The Kingdom of God is not some mystical place that people get into by saying the sinners prayer, etc.; it is a place where God rules absolutely. This is why I tie in all the examples of the Tabernacle (mobile King's palace), Temple (permanant King's palace), etc. to the Acts 2 event. When God came in Israel to take His throne and rule among His people Israel, there was an ABSOLUTE expectation that they obey Him or He simply rolled out! The glory departed. Why? Because the Kingdom of God can only ever be where God is ruling and reigning in an absolute sense. If a Christian won't obey God, why should the devil obey the Christian? In other words, Christians say they are hounded by the Devil and by sin, but it is because they refuse often times to submit to God. Lot of people calling themselves Christians, but have no idea that a Christian is a person that obeys God from the heart as a matter of course and natural desire. They don't have to take themselves by the scruff of the neck or fast for ten years to get themselves to obey. God WORKS in them both to WIll and to DO His good pleasure. If that is not our reality, we are not in the kindom of God no matter how much we quote scripture verses, speak in tongues or anything else. I don't put a lot of stock in tongues because I have seen way too many people that spoke in tongues or even gave messages in tongues that fell away from the faith, etc.

6. Yes. Jesus Christ is the author and the finisher of everyones faith. Keep that clear. We learn of this in Hebrews 12:23 where we have this phrase, "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...," The spirits of men that are justied by faith are made perfect. I think his is what happened to all O.T. saints and if a person, such as the thief on the cross, cries out for mercy at the last moment then the author and finisher of our faith will 'make perfect' the spirit of that just man or woman. If God raises the person off their death bed after confessing Christ, as the old timers would say, then they will get up and serve God and go on with God and all He has for them. If not, they were never sincerly repentant to begin with and may very well be lost. It is a hard saying, but there it is.

I hope that helps clear up a bit of what I see happening at this juncture in my understanding. Blessings.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/31 7:46Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Hi Awakened,

Quote:
I think I have already heard you state yes to most of these above in subsequent posts but I am truly wanting to understand with clarity your position, without a whole lot more explanation.



Per question:

1. Yes. There is no other reference to being baptized with or in the Spirit in the Book of Acts or the latter parts of the Gospels that would correlate to being baptized into His one body, baptized into His death, or buried with Him in baptism. Paul says there is one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). The Ephesian twelve had had two water baptisms and one Spirit baptism. It is my view that there is only one Baptism to which all others are types. That Baptism, in my view, took place on the Day of Pentecost. If we make up a fourth baptism, that I have viewed as a 'secret' baptism then we have done so in similar way to those that invented the secret rapture.


Robert, given nothing to support a second water baptism and knowing that the baptism of Jesus Christ was of His Holy Spirit and that by His Name and the laying of hands it could be administered, why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??

 2012/10/31 8:14Profile









 Re:

RW said:

Quote:
these believers in Christ, having repented and cast off and confessed all known sin, were JUSTIFIED by faith as surely as Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist or the thief on the cross. When Paul laid hands on them they received the Spirit, that is, they were baptized into the Body of Christ, buried with him in baptism unto death, dead to sin, no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, had BEGUN in the Spirit (Galatians 3:3) and could now bear the Fruit of the Spirit unto holiness and be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God of whom Christ would not have to be ashamed to call them brethren. (Hebrews 2:11).

Very well said.

Perhaps you could gather up all these fragments here and more and write another book entitling it, "Are you REALLY born again?"

 2012/10/31 8:27









 Re:

Coref said:

Quote:
why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??

Probably because it's written that he did in Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

6 And [afterward] when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. [emphasis mine]

He probably didn't have to water baptize them before hand, but because their whole make up surrounding John's baptism it was probably needful to get their minds turned around to Jesus. John was telling people that they should not believe in him as their Messiah but to believe in the One that should come after him. I think it was necessary to dis-spell any ideas that the followers of John might have thought about him. These disciples no doubt had this mindset. No doubt that Apollos had the same run in when he met Aquila and Priscilla, because his tune changed later expounding to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. Before that, he was preaching of the one that was still coming, but had already came, died and resurrected, to which Aquila and Priscilla showed him a more perfect way.






Side note: He himself did not water baptize them (probably Barnabas or Silas), for he himself baptized a couple of people 1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

 2012/10/31 8:40
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Interestingly enough, the Nazarene are very strong in believing that the work of sanctification is almost synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They do not focus much at all on the Acts 2 manifestations, but do focus strongly on power and grace to overcome sin.

I was just at a meeting last night where a Nazarene preacher laid out this doctrine very plainly. The only problem I had with it was that it seemed that if he had not already held that doctrinal position, he would not have seen in the scripture he used the points that he made. However, he is a strong man of God, as far as I know lives a very holy life, and bears much fruit for the kingdom. Praise God for this man. I was very much blessed by his ministry and the presence of God was strong in the meeting. Yet, I am not sure I agree with him doctrinally. Isn't it great that God does not require that we have our doctrine totally straight before He will move in and through us.

I think Robert has a really valid point in that we have tended in modern Pentecost to reduce the baptism of the Holy Spirit to an experience in which we pray in tongues. While I believe that praying in tongues is important, it is only part of what the Holy Spirit does. I would not say it is more or less important than the other functions, but it has a different purpose in that it is on a personal level and its benefits are for the particular believer more than for ministry, while messages in tongues with interpretation are only one of nine gifts listed in 1 Cor., and is only one of several more manifestations of the Spirit given in other books as well.

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit should produce, in the life of a believer, a power to overcome sin that has never been present before. It should yield believers who walk in the Spirit rather than in the flesh. The change should be substantive and visible.

To give a bit of opinion on some questions, I have come to see the rebirth as the point of regeneration of man's spirit. A death to the old man and a life in Christ. Based on Jesus discourse with Nicodemus in John 3, Jesus statement that "if any man would come after me, let him first deny himself and take up his cross...", and on Paul's statements in Romans 6, I cannot separate, in my mind, the work of justification from the work of regeneration. I am compelled to put them together under the banner of salvation and say it is a package deal. To me, sanctification is a work of God, a setting apart of ourselves to be wholly His, that comes when we make the decision by faith to turn from our own ways and follow Christ. Perhaps this is the reason I believe that we have made salvation too cheap, and many have come to see it as an eternal fire escape rather than a total commitment of their life to Christ. Salvation is free, Yes, in that we cannot earn it or pay for it. But it is not free in that we cannot simply pick it up along with the other goodies as we might pick up a free give-a-way at a vendors table at a sales expo. To obtain Christ we must give ourselves to Him.

This does not mean that we become perfect in our soul and our flesh all at once. There is a process in which the Lord says, "I don't yet have that part of you. I want that too.", and we are faced with the reality of our sanctification in action rather than simply in sentiment. ...even your sanctification, that ye (do these things)...

It is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that empowers us to live and walk in sanctification. This is why I believe the Acts 2 experience was never meant by God to be optional equipment for a believer. All believers should be filled with the Holy Spirit.


_________________
Travis

 2012/10/31 8:54Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/31 5:40:28

Coref said:

Quote:
why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??

Probably because it's written that he did in Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

6 And [afterward] when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

He probably didn't have to water baptize them before hand, but because their whole make up surrounding John's baptism it was probably needful to get their minds turned around to Jesus. John was telling people that they should not believe in him as their Messiah but to believe in the One that should come after him. I think it was necessary to dis-spell any ideas that the followers of John might have thought about him. These disciples no doubt had this mindset. No doubt that Apollos had the same run in when he met Aquila and Priscilla, because his tune changed later expounding to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. Before that, he was preaching of the one that was still coming, but had already came, died and resurrected, to which Aquila and Priscilla showed him a more perfect way.


Should we also assume that's what happen at the house Cornelius? Because of the account, I fail to see any need to add the word "[afterward]" in this __even if Paul did water baptize them simply because we DON"T have to assume such.

 2012/10/31 9:07Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by twayneb on 2012/10/31 5:54:52

Interestingly enough, the Nazarene are very strong in believing that the work of sanctification is almost synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They do not focus much at all on the Acts 2 manifestations, but do focus strongly on power and grace to overcome sin.




Since Jesus destroyed the power of sin indicates to me, we don't have to but rather it is our flesh and its demands it places upon us that needs be overcome. Jesus showed us how that was done we need to learn.

 2012/10/31 9:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I fail to see any need to add the word "[afterward]" in this

I apologize for this, I wasn't adding it to the verse, I was merely emphasizing that Paul baptized them afterward. I corrected the previous post by adding [emphasis mine] so that no one will think that I was adding to the scriptures. Thanks for pointing that out to me brother.

 2012/10/31 9:15





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