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Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Robert,

RE: Your OT references on the Holy Spirit cannot be considered to be in the same light as the Holy Spirit of the NT which could not be given - was not given - until after the glorification of Jesus. There are reasons for that having everything to do relationship to God as the OT saints could not experience. I do not mean to infer your passages do not point to the future but, no one in the OT had the privilege we have today.

Quote:
When the lamp of the Lord goes out there is no way to keep the flesh in subjection- because the only way to walk upright in this fallen world is to keep on burning. The Seraphim burn, so must we.



Very true. I easily associate that with John 17:3, don't you?


Quote:
God is a consuming Fire- so are we. Are we content to allow this world to go on lamenting void of men and women of Fire- having never seen a true believer in the book of Acts sense? If the Fire be burning in us- we have confidence towards God. He must come. We must make ready. We must invite Him in an attitude of desire to obey.

We have to present ourselves holy and acceptable. It is our reasonable service. If we sing to God with no Fire; it cannot be rightly said to be worship in Spirit. The incense does not rise to God unless there is Fire. Not the fire of hype and instrumentality. Not something worked up, but a Fire sent down from God. We must make ready. He has come to send Fire on the earth. Will we be the one? Will He be able to send us?



In all that is the reason I see the difference between being merely saved [our choosing] and being born again [His choosing]; being born again [His choosing] and our wearing of the priestly garment [the Holy Spirit Baptism of Christ Jesus]. AKA the Pentecostal enduement __for life, AKA "Fire".

Thank you.

PS. The below is a type of Holy Spirit Baptism requirement__and why:

"And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with LINEN garments; and no wool shall come UPON them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
They shall have linen bonnets UPON their heads, and shall have LINEN breeches UPON their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causes sweat." Ezekiel 44:17-18 (KJV)

Given the "Priestly garments of Linen" were for worshiping the Lord within the inner chamber, should not it also be supposed that the "coming upon, the clothing" of the Holy Ghost be for the same reason?

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father UPON you: but tarry ye in [don't leave] the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued [CLOTHED] with power from on high. Luke 24:49 (KJV)


Wool = self__ To use your analogy--[no fire]
Linen = Holy Spirit__ [the only One Who has any fire]

UPON = No indwelling here.Again, to use your analogy


 2012/10/30 5:40Profile
turn
Member



Joined: 2011/4/27
Posts: 177
USA

 Re:

Before the day of Pentecost...

...Abel obtained testimony that he was righteous.

...Enoch pleased God and was translated so that he did not see death.

...Noah was a just man in his generation.

...Job was described as perfect and upright.

...Abraham was justified by faith.

...Moses by faith was able to lead his nation across the Red Sea

...David was a man after God's own heart.

...Daniel blessed the God of heaven and was able to tell Nebuchnezzar about his dream and the interpretation.

...Nebuchadnezzar gave praise and testimony: How great are his signs and how mighty are his wonders.

In the New Testament Book of Luke...

...Zacharias was full of the Holy Ghost and prophesied (1:67)

...Simeon was a just and devout man who had the Holy Ghost upon him and who prophesied (2:25ff)

...the child, Jesus...grew and waxed strong in spirit (2:40).

The Holy Spirit can be given more than once.

The Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost that the early Church might have power to be witnesses (Acts 1:8)...that they might live with a faith and power that overcomes fear and weakness. They needed that power then. Many of us need that power today.

 2012/10/30 8:02Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Jesus was the FIRST indwelt by the Holy Spirit. His natural birth, by Him, being the "first of first fruits" is no different than that which given to those who follow Him, evidenced in the prescribed way.

". . . if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV)


 2012/10/30 8:25Profile
gators52
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Joined: 2011/9/21
Posts: 63
Central Florida

 Re:

actually John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mothers womb.. luke 1:15


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Brian

 2012/10/30 8:33Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:


by gators52 on 2012/10/30 5:33:36

actually John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mothers womb.. luke 1:15




"Actually" was JTB the "first of First Fruits". "Actually", was JTB conceived by the Holy Spirit?

Sighting one Robin doesn't make it springtime.

 2012/10/30 8:44Profile









 Re: Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

Quote:
"And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with LINEN garments; and no wool shall come UPON them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
They shall have linen bonnets UPON their heads, and shall have LINEN breeches UPON their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causes sweat." Ezekiel 44:17-18 (KJV)

Given the "Priestly garments of Linen" were for worshiping the Lord within the inner chamber, should not it also be supposed that the "coming upon, the clothing" of the Holy Ghost be for the same reason? Croref




Here is the better covenant Croref. Not the inner court of the temple made with hands and garments which pass away. But clothed before God which garment is eternal and which court is the presence of God. Where Satan is rebuked and the Branch which was promised is come. The Lord Bless You.



Zechariah Chapter three

3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
4 He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.”
5 Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.
6 And the angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying,
7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.

8 ‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you—indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

 2012/10/30 9:07
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

. . . I'm done

 2012/10/30 9:11Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

CroRef is out now, but I wanted to touch this aspect we may have missed.

Quote:
Your OT references on the Holy Spirit cannot be considered to be in the same light as the Holy Spirit of the NT which could not be given - was not given - until after the glorification of Jesus.



I completely agree that the O.T. fillings of the Spirit were not the same as post Pentecost. My angle on it is that this is because the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is what places a person into Christ and enables them to be a partaker of the Divine Nature. It is my view that this is the point at which a person, In the words of Galatians 3:3, has 'begun in the Spirit.' There were fillings and anointing until that time, but they were always associated with Divine enablement to accomplish a 'certain task'. In other words, these were more comparable to the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, than with the fruit of the Spirit that was made possible at Pentecost.

I typically keep my eye on something John Baptist said,

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matthew 3:10)

Notice 'trees' is in the plural. Trees are symbolic of men (Isaiah 61:3, etc.). This squares with what the writer to the Hebrews stated Hebrews 6:8, But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

A lot of people have done great miracles throughout the O.T., but I see the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a means of getting folk out of Adam and into Christ in such a way that they are TRULY dead to Sin, buried with Him by baptism into death, not in the flesh, etc. (ed.) They that have BEGUN in the Spirit are enabled from that moment to be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God.

I am not convinced that anyone pre-Pentecost could have walked in the reality I just described. If the 120 skip the upper room, we not only have a group without power, but we have totally missed the possibility of any man being a right representation of Jesus Christ, who was Beth-EL while on the earth. We have a lot os 'silent' things happening these days theologically that have no basis in scripture. We have silent born again experiences, raptures,etc., while all of these events are described as glorious, open, and laudable.

When Solomon's Temple was glorified everyone knew it. God had come. The King came in to take up His spot in the Temple. I can't possibly over emphasize this picture. Until the King comes and sits on His throne, in His Temple, then the Temple is not glorified. It is just an ordinary building. It was a magnificent event in Israel. The FIRE fell and the glory came. This is all a figure of the day Pentecost. Again, to tie these things together, Jesus defines REGENERATION saying,

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

This is my working definition of Regeneration that I apply to Titus 3:5 and couple it with Acts 2:1. Hope that helps a bit. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/30 9:44Profile









 Re:

Brother Robert,
CroRef may be done, and I am also on my out but I have this to say in conclusion. I believe that CroRef was correct in his assessment of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and its purpose, but to labor the point seems to becoming fruitless here.

Brother Robert, what I "hear" you saying and I do not believe I am misunderstanding you at all, is this:

1. A person is baptized into Christ when they have the experience of book of Acts, which is commonly referred to as the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". We can parse those words a dozen different ways and share all the articles we want about this experience in the book of Acts, but it is dis-ingenious for us to ignore what millions, indeed billions actually believe to be the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". And not only billions today, but almost every single famous preacher on this very website, SermonIndex!!!

2. To take your thoughts to their logical conclusion, you are not far off stating that a person must be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to be saved??? Now, you have not come out and used those exact words, but careful reading of all that you have posted, infers much the same or at the very least brings a great deal of confusion to this subject.

3. You have also stated (unless I read it wrong) that a person can be saved (justified) but not yet born again. And the way they become born again is to be "baptized into Christ" which in your view is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost. This is the most confusing thing I have ever heard. If I taught this to believers it would strike confusion and fear into their hearts. This is dangerous teaching.

4. You then go on to state that those people who become saved by faith are not yet born again by the Holy Spirit...that is step 2. This you say will be evident when they have a distinct experience akin to book of Acts experience on the day of Pentecost. Now you may not be saying that it has to be exactly like the day of Pentecost, but that is what I hear you inferring.

5. You then state that those saved people who are not born again are not actually a part of the Kingdom of God yet!!! Seriously, this is the most alarming statement of all. You provide wonderful teachings and articles to back it up, and do so in a nice, calm, Christlike manner, but that doesnt make it sound teaching. I am being this blunt because I fear some will come to this website and swallow this teaching and be thrown into fearful confusion.

6. Now, you do say, there is nothing to fear at all about this, because Jesus knows who His sheep are (predestined ones). And so if you are indeed saved, (are justified by faith), you are predestined to come into the Kingdom of God anyway and will come into the born again experience anyway...automatically it seems? So relax, you will be born again eventually. Now, I don't want bring up the C word, but that is what I am hearing. Sighhhhh....

Yes, sigh that was the sound of me letting out a long, resigning breath...lol. Because this is what seems to happen to these internet discussions…every single time. In fact I am probably done with forums completely after this…we will see.

May I suggest brother Robert that you (and all of us) turn off our computers, put away our theology books and take the advice of A.W. Tozer and lock ourselves away with God. Then after four years others can still be arguing about this, but we will have come to KNOW God and there will be no more wondering what it is exactly the Holy Spirit has done in our lives.

And with that, I too am bowing out of this thread, unless you implore me (and send me chocolates) to explain something that I may or may not have stated here.

Good night and God Bless!

Mark

 2012/10/30 10:31
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Awakened,

Quote:
May I suggest brother Robert that you (and all of us) turn off our computers, put away our theology books and take the advice of A.W. Tozer and lock ourselves away with God. Then after four years others can still be arguing about this, but we will have come to KNOW God and there will be no more wondering what it is exactly the Holy Spirit has done in our lives.



I hear what you are saying here, but you asked the question and I and others have tried to give our positions. We have been having these type discussions for a long time here in these forums. I understand that the masses are moving in different ideas, but I have also heard people on this site suggest that less than 5% of people are truly born of the Spirit. If you listen to L. Ravenhill he will say similar things. Many have have no fruit in their life though that have prayed a prayer and asked for forgiveness, etc.

So we have to ask ourselves what is wrong with our approach to evangelism, what it means to be 'born again' and what it means to be 'saved'. We already have had over 100 years of preachers telling people they are saved, a practice that has no precedent in previous centuries. This, in my view, is what is truly dangerous. We are living in a time when the primary concern is that folks have their sins forgive and if they have that they don't care about anything else.

So if we say that folks are born again, then we need to examine what that means. New Birth yield a fruit that we do not often see today. This is George Whitfield on the subject:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=20540

At the end of the day I don't really mind what order a person comes into New Birth, so long as we teach and achieve the real thing. I'm not afraid of this subject. I would rather people know the truth than to believe a lie. I'm looking at it from God's design, rather than man's desire to be forgiven. We have to. We may receive forgiveness of sins, but it is only so that we can go on with God and move in His will. If a person does not go on with God, when revelation and opportunity are afforded, it is hard for me to view them as being right with God. We are moving in a man-centered theology often times that seeks man's happiness, but God is wanting sons, sons that Christ does not have to be ashamed to call brethren. Hope that helps. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/30 11:37Profile





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