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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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 Re:

Quote:
A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?
Answer: They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.

The word "Adnausm" must be Latin, as there is no definition online. Anyway...

I wanted a response not because I didn't know, I just wanted an answer.

If they were not born again but made it to heaven, than we can assume that those that have been justified by faith in the New Testament who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to bring them into the new birth as being saved.

Now, if those OT saints were saved without being born again, why is it important to be born again since we can get in by faith? If it works for the OT saints why not for us?

 2012/10/29 12:52
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Approved wrote"If we sin, we do not stop being Spirit and become flesh, we have an advocate with the Father to purge us from all unrighteousness."

This is indeed what I believe. We have the Blood of Christ as payment for any sins committed that would put our covenant with God in jeopardy. This is the great thing about the New Covenant. God can call us to this great realm while keeping us cleansed by the Blood of Christ the whole time.

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (Hebrews 12)

We can go on with God in this great New Covenant without the perpetual fear of damnation if we slip up. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us, etc. If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So my focus is not humanistic, that is to say, I am not primarily focused on what man desires, but what God desires. God wants sons and has given us all we need pertaining to that end. If I were working for man I would focus on man's interests (saved from hell primarily); but I'm focused totally on what the Lamb of God has purchased, so that He gets fully what He has purchased and that His will in the Saints and the churches of God is carried out. Hope that clarifies a bit. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/29 12:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Hope that helps a bit. Blessings.

You have no idea Brother!!

 2012/10/29 12:56
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

They didn't make it to Heaven until Jesus made peace, by His Blood, in their behalf. cf Rom.5:1.

 2012/10/29 12:56Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/29 9:52:00

Quote:
A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?
Answer: They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.

The word "Adnausm" must be Latin, as there is no definition online. Anyway...

I wanted a response not because I didn't know, I just wanted an answer.

If they were not born again but made it to heaven, than we can assume that those that have been justified by faith in the New Testament who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to bring them into the new birth as being saved.

Now, if those OT saints were saved without being born again, why is it important to be born again since we can get in by faith? If it works for the OT saints why not for us?


Our new birth is more about it being for God than it is for us. Traditional teaching doesn't teach much about that perspective, being wrapped up in their shallow perspective of salvation for millennia, absent everything else spoken of in the gospels and letters that declare there being much more to the cross than we have been given to major on..

 2012/10/29 13:03Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Robert,
Thank you for clarifying and answering my questions.

I believe we are on the same page about the other things you mentioned, giving people "false assurances" of salvation...very well put, thank you.

No, I am not suggesting that anyone who is born again, has two natures. But I am suggesting that we still have a flesh, we are not yet glorified and that this flesh has its own desires. I am able to live according to the Spirit by one and only one reason, and that is because Christ lives in me (by the Spirit). However, I am fallible because I am still flesh. One day my mortality will put on immortality and I will never have to be concerned with crucifying or mortifying (considering it dead) the flesh. Until then, we discipline ourselves to yield continuously to the Holy Spirit, who is in us.

Regarding the Holy Spirit. This is a vast subject that we cannot even begin to exhaust in this thread.

My view is that a person is born again at salvation (justification) and I now come to believe that you hold a different view.

My view also is that there is another experience that is referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and this is for born again believers. I have now come to believe that you do not hold to this same view. We can respectfully disagree with each other and still have wonderful fellowship in the Lord though!!!

I also believe that we are to continually seek for re-fillings of the Holy Spirit Eph 5. Experimentally I have found that this is akin what Paul speaks of in Eph 3, "to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man..." I have never been able to sin when I am full of the Holy Spirit. But when I have been overly-busy or distracted or allowed my walk with the Lord to become dry (yes it has happened!)...then I am far more prone to falling into sin. I don't believe that is a sign that I am not born again, or have even lost my salvation...but it is a sign that I am resisting the working of the Holy Spirit in my life and am "slowing down" His process of conforming me to the image of Christ. I am still moving towards my destination, albiet much slower than the Lord wants me to. The key then is to remain, always surrendered to the Holy SPirit, knowing that unless I allow Him to work in me, I have no hope of ever coming to full maturity in Christ...changed from one glorious working of the Spirit in me, to the next.

It is a joy to converse with you brother Robert, you have refreshed my soul and I have learned much from you!!!

In Him,
Mark

 2012/10/29 13:04
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/29 9:52:00

Quote:
A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?
Answer: They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.

The word "Adnausm" must be Latin, as there is no definition online. Anyway...

I wanted a response not because I didn't know, I just wanted an answer.

If they were not born again but made it to heaven, than we can assume that those that have been justified by faith in the New Testament who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to bring them into the new birth as being saved.

Now, if those OT saints were saved without being born again, why is it important to be born again since we can get in by faith? If it works for the OT saints why not for us?

My word "Adnausm" notwithstanding, I ask, from the scriptures, what is required of one for salvation? Note: I did NOT ask what they received but only what was required of them?

 2012/10/29 13:17Profile









 Re:

Approved wrote:

Quote:
We do not cease to be in Christ when we sin.


I don't think anyone believes on this thread or is saying this or has their wires crossed. But it is a fact that born again believers who are "in Christ" can and will and do in fact sin. Or do some here believe that it is not even possible for a born again person to sin?

Quote:
We are not Schizophrenic in that we are one minute in Christ or in the Spirit and another minute we are in the flesh.


Again, this is a straw man...an argument constructed that no one is making, that can then be knocked down to make another point. No-one is suggesting this, that they can be in Christ and then out of Christ. That would be ludicrous.

Quote:
Paul's words it this way, Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you..."If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". This is an important sentence, it defines who we are in Christ Jesus, not because we fall into sin from time to time.


I agree with this, that we are defined by our birth...we are born of the Spirit, therefore as Paul writes, "you are in or of the Spirit".

Quote:
We are either one or the other. We are either spirit or we are flesh.


Okay now we are getting down to it. Now this statement can very easily confuse people. Especially, young believers. Is my body made of Spirit or flesh? Are my eyes Spirit or flesh? Flesh of course. And because the members of my body are flesh, they have fleshly desires. My inner man though is born again and is of the Spirit. These two "things" then are in opposition to each other. On the one hand I have a flesh, but on the other I am born again and are of the Spirit. "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

What am I to do? To say that my flesh no longer exists? To say that I can no longer sin? To say that I am ONLY Spirit and no longer have a flesh?

Of course not! We are NOT Spirit only, therefore we are called to WALK in the Spirit rather than WALK in the flesh. Paul further tells us that those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live (are born) of the Spirit, let us also WALK by the Spirit.

We are not robots, we have a choice. We can yield to our flesh and WALK in it, or we can crucify it, and WALK by the Spirit.

My reason for posting this is not to argue with anyone but to hopefully help those younger believers believers who might be getting confused about these matters.

In Him,
Mark

 2012/10/29 13:42
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Awakened,

Quote:
It is a joy to converse with you brother Robert, you have refreshed my soul and I have learned much from you!!!



I enjoy talking about these great things as it is the passion of my heart to see folks come into the fulness of all that Christ has done. I appreciate everyone, though we obviously see things differently, maintaining a Christ-like spirit through it all. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/29 14:35Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I truly hope everyone will take a little time to take a look at Ron Bailey's article that I posted a while back in this thread. It was first published in these forums about 6 or 7 years ago. No matter where you come down on this subject I promise you it will be an enriching read. It would be like someone giving you a much needed key to unlocking the New Testament. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/29 14:40Profile





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