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 Re: Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

Quote:
by amrkelly on 2012/10/28 4:46:19


Perhaps some people are none of these things and know the truth and are born again simply because they believed God. Perhaps some have seen Christ physically and know the truth concerning who He is for this reason. Perhaps others are simply taught of The Holy Spirit as is promised.

Thanks amrkelly! I don't see from scriptures where being born again is needed for "initial" or "elementary" salvation. Do you? I see it as being needed for intimacy in Christ, in the Father. What say you? Croref.




Until this post brother I had never asked myself the question that forms the root by “awakened.” The question itself obviously pertains to salvation of the Apostles. And the consensus appears to be that they were born again on the day of Pentecost. For various reasons I have no difficulty with that.

Cornelius, his family and his friends have been cited as a possible example of the process of salvation being “worked out” in a few moments of time. Certainly what happened to Cornelius et al does have a clear conclusion in that they did receive the Holy Spirit in like manner as the Jews did in the upper room of Pentecost. Peter in explaining this incident in Jerusalem later on reported that the angel who appeared to Cornelius said “and he (Peter) will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your house (v14).” Peter himself also began his address by pointing out “you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (v 36-37). Clearly Cornelius had a great deal of knowledge he also prayed and supported the poor and was God fearing. Yet Peter didn’t preach repentance. He spoke of the resurrection instead.

I didn’t answer your question earlier because it was not desired and because its of no relevance to the thread. I also didn’t want to cut across too much the effort of others. It is an interesting thread however in more ways than one and has in it a presentation that goes far beyond what many will realize. But that’s just my thoughts on it.

To answer your question directly brother I don’t believe salvation begins until a person is born again. It has always been my understanding that new birth is the spiritual minimum and not the object of God’s activities in men.

 2012/10/29 10:32
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi HeyDave,

Quote:
" If we say we have fellowship (shared life) with Him (Christ), and walk in darkness we lie..."

"If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

"you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."

Etc, Etc........



I think this is true. A person will know if Christ has came into them because they, of all people, will know if they have been radically changed. I can tell you the day I was changed by the Spirit into a New Creature in Christ. I could do a before and after. I knew God had came and as a result Christianity because something I was inwardly and by nature. I didn't have to 'put on'. I didn't have to fake like I loved, I really loved. I received a whole new affection.

Before that time I was real good at quoting scripture verses and even saying 'amen' at the right time. But when Christ came into me my whole heart and mind was different. Almost like someone had reinstalled the operating system. All the memories were there, but I looked at them very differently. Things I used to proud of I was now ashamed of, etc. I received the mind of
Christ. My heart was replaced form a heart of stone to a heart of flesh that could feel compassion and be moved with compassion- even for my enemies, etc.

The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. Before Christ came in I was just an outsider working real hard to try to be a 'good Christian'. Being a New Creature, having been baptized into Christ, I was set free from the bondages of Sin. That is NOT to say I am not temptable or have had to repent. I have had to repent and even publically before since being changed, but that was the consequence of my own refusal to bring my body into subjection, etc. and falling the example of Christ. Sin for a Christian is like a fish out of water. We can sin as the regenerate, but we are moving contrary to our essential nature. We can be drawn away and enticed even as was Adam and Eve before the fall, etc.

So we see then that Paul knows that we know if we have received Christ or not; whether or not we are what he describes in his epistles. just a few thoughts. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/29 10:41Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Robert,
First of all, thank you for your in depth and very helpful writings, I really appreciate it and agree with almost everything you write. However I do have some concerns.

Quote:
I refuse to let people think they are born again that are moving in some lesser thing. It may make everyone comfortable...


Uncomfortable? This an understatement:) What context are you speaking of here...I am assuming when you say, "everyone" that this is in a church setting? Are you referring to when you preach? I would like to hear how this pans out practically in body life. How else do you go about "refusing to let them think they are born again"? Do you examine them? Can you give me an example of how you have done this recently?

Quote:
I do not believe in schizophrenic Saints. I am not saying that discourage anyone, I just don't believe in it. Paul said, "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit dwells in us." A person cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.


Again, I am coming from a practical standpoint, in a church life setting. You may not be meaning to discourage anyone but I have found both in my own family and in a church fellowship setting that this line of thinking and teaching usually is very discouraging for those who are weak in their faith and maturing at a less than desirable rate. Paul tells us in Gal 5 that we are still have a flesh, even after we are born of the Holy Spirit. If we are not mortifying our flesh and are NOT being strengthened by the Spirits working in us, then that earthly part of me (my flesh) can and will at times get the better of me and I will at times "fall into sin". This can and will happen with those who are born again. I love this site and I love the hard preaching and teaching but I also have come to learn that we must “go and learn mercy” as it pertains to walking with my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord has not equipped us with a special ability to discern who has the Spirit and who does not. Holy Spirit "ultrasounds" have not been invented yet, but when they are I will be the first to buy one

Quote:
I don't believe in evolutional regeneration. A sinner does not slowly evolve over years into a Saint. When something is born it's all there, nothing lacking.


I would hate to be a member of any church that took that view towards its people. What ever happened to "growing in grace"? People grow and mature at different rates naturally and it is the same thing spiritually.

Quote:
I cannot settle for some lesser thing when God has revealed in His word His design. So I refuse to 'advocate' anything less than what God wants in man. I'm not going to call a sinner a Saint (regenerated) because they believed a few points of doctrine and can recite the apostles creed or something.


"We refuse to advocate"? Who are we to advocate anything in another person? We are not another mans God…we do not know when, if and how another man has been born from above. This is all well and good as doctrine, but from a practical standpoint if we take this view with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ we will do far more damage than good.

Quote:
So I see genuine repentance and faith as essential to justification. Some would call this being 'born again', but I see this as conversion. As in, repent ye therefore and be CONVERTED that your sins may be blotted out. I then see the next step as the "times of refreshing coming by the Spirit of God."


I really do believe that you are confusing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit UPON born again believers in the book of Acts. Ironically I was the one to start this thread and have now come to see this in abundant, resounding clarity. To suggest otherwise and to then relate this to the modern day believer, is to wade into dangerous territory that will confuse many believers and create in them, a sense that they need to strive for an Acts outpouring experience in order to be born again. And if we do that, we will lead them to believe that they are merely justified and not born again, and as such “cannot enter the Kingdom of God”.

It is a brave man who can suggest such a thing to another believer, that they have not yet entered the Kingdom of God unless they have had certain “experiences”.

In Him,
Mark

 2012/10/29 12:04
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 292


 Re: Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

"1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?"

They were already born again.
As was Adam, Seth, Enoch, .. Noah,... Abraham, Isaach, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, .... the prophets, David, etc.

eg.- Zacchaeus - Luke 19:9.And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.


_________________
J Kruger

 2012/10/29 12:07Profile









 Re:

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?

 2012/10/29 12:19









 Re:

Robert said

Quote:
I do not believe in schizophrenic Saints. I am not saying that discourage anyone, I just don't believe in it. Paul said, "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit dwells in us." A person cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

If I may speak for my brother, I think what he is referring to is WHO WE ARE NOW.

We are getting our wires crossed that when we 'sin' we are in the flesh. We do not cease to be in Christ when we sin. This what I believe Robert is saying.

We are not Schizophrenic in that we are one minute in Christ or in the Spirit and another minute we are in the flesh. Though Paul does say that we are carnal when we think carnally minded thoughts, but that doesn't change our standing in God as being in Christ.

Paul's words it this way, Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you....

"If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". This is an important sentence, it defines who we are in Christ Jesus, not because we fall into sin from time to time.

The beginning of chapter 8 is showing those that are born again the differences of being in Adam and being the in second Adam. We are either one or the other. We are either spirit or we are flesh.

When we were baptized in His Spirit, or into the kingdom of God, we ceased to be old Adam, we now are Christ. By being in Christ, our lives are hid in Him and our identity now is Christ.

If we sin, we do not stop being Spirit and become flesh, we have an advocate with the Father to purge us from all unrighteousness.

 2012/10/29 12:35
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/29 9:19:53

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?





They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.__

 2012/10/29 12:36Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by jochbaptist on 2012/10/29 9:07:45

"1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?"

They were already born again.
As was Adam, Seth, Enoch, .. Noah,... Abraham, Isaach, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, .... the prophets, David, etc.

eg.- Zacchaeus - Luke 19:9.And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.




Negative. Impossible, __and that has been discussed adnausm, as well.

 2012/10/29 12:37Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Awakened,

Quote:
Are you referring to when you preach? I would like to hear how this pans out practically in body life. How else do you go about "refusing to let them think they are born again"? Do you examine them? Can you give me an example of how you have done this recently?



What I mean here, is that I refuse to comfort folks with false assurances. I examine no one. I don't tell people they are saved. I set before them the word of God and allow them to reckon with it on their own.

Quote:
Again, I am coming from a practical standpoint, in a church life setting. You may not be meaning to discourage anyone but I have found both in my own family and in a church fellowship setting that this line of thinking and teaching usually is very discouraging for those who are weak in their faith and maturing at a less than desirable rate.



It is a difficult matter to navigate, but I think we have to preach the Gospel as it is. I would continue to encourage folks to go on with God until they come into the fulness of all that God has for them. But this is why I place such a strong focus and emphasis on justification by Faith. Paul establishes this before he tells us anything significant about New Birth. He preaches justification in such a way that if he were to stop right there in Romans 5 people would think he was saying, "let us continue in sin that grace may abound." We have to preach it that strongly or people will despair of life thinking they are saved by an experience or a certain level of spiritual growth. If a person has truly repented and turned to trust Christ in genuine faith- in my theology they are 'justified by faith'.

It is important that what I am saying is taken as a whole lot and not piece mail. The moment my theology gets mixed with someone elses we are bordering on some type of heresy.

Quote:
Paul tells us in Gal 5 that we are still have a flesh, even after we are born of the Holy Spirit



If this means we still have a sinful nature I would not concur. We still have a human nature that is subject to temptation in this present evil world, but I don't believe Christians have two essential natures.

Quote:
I really do believe that you are confusing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit UPON born again believers in the book of Acts. Ironically I was the one to start this thread and have now come to see this in abundant, resounding clarity. To suggest otherwise and to then relate this to the modern day believer, is to wade into dangerous territory that will confuse many believers and create in them, a sense that they need to strive for an Acts outpouring experience in order to be born again. And if we do that, we will lead them to believe that they are merely justified and not born again, and as such “cannot enter the Kingdom of God”.



I understand your concerns very well. The problem on the opposite end is that we would give folks the impression that they have received something that they have not. Paul asked people, he did not tell them. He told them to examine themselves. We have to be free from the temptation and compulsion to assure people of their salvation. It has been going on for about a hundred years now, but it is not the way the Gospel used to be preached. This is why when a person used to come to Christ they were said to "have found comfort in the prayer" or were "hopefully converted." It was under Billy Sunday's ministry that the language of 'got saved' came into vogue. God was always allowed to be the one to assure folks of their salvation. It was the ministers who would preach messages such as "Marks of the New Birth" to give folks an idea of what they should expect when they were truly born from above. Hope that helps a bit. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/29 12:41Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by awakened on 2012/10/29 9:04:11

Hi brother Robert,
First of all, thank you for your in depth and very helpful writings, I really appreciate it and agree with almost everything you write. However I do have some concerns.

Quote:
I refuse to let people think they are born again that are moving in some lesser thing. It may make everyone comfortable...


Uncomfortable? This an understatement:) What context are you speaking of here...I am assuming when you say, "everyone" that this is in a church setting? Are you referring to when you preach? I would like to hear how this pans out practically in body life. How else do you go about "refusing to let them think they are born again"? Do you examine them? Can you give me an example of how you have done this recently?


The litmus test is this for you, and anyone you might ask in your church crowd:

"I love Jesus Christ and I love to talk about Him, don't you." [questions of that sort]

First ask it of yourself and if you can honestly answer yourself without a squeamish feeling, then ask it of them _one on one. There should be no difficulty in asking if you mean business. It is called giving your testimony. See how many 'Christian' friends you have left if you should discuss Jesus in their presence more than once. Watch as they gradually avoid you. You will be alone___guaranteed.

 2012/10/29 12:49Profile





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