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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Robert, If this is true:

"The Second Blessing Holiness people said 'Baptism in the Spirit produces a clean heart'. The Pentecostals said Baptism in the Spirit 'gives power for service'. Why quarrel? Why set one truth against the other?"

Then what does this say to the believer:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded". James 4:8 (KJV)

 2012/10/28 8:37Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
Then what does this say to the believer:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded". James 4:8 (KJV)



James' writings are unique in the New Testament so we have to look at them carefully. Martin Luther called James 'an epistle of straw' in reference to Paul's words in 1 Cor. 3:12 (gold, silver, precious stones or hay wood and stubble). I think Martin Luther was wrong here, but we have to understand that James has a unique perspective. He deals with issues Paul speaks to so that it appears they are opposing each other at times; but as the late J. Vernon McGee stated, Paul and James stood back to back armed defending both sides of certain truths. I think this is right.

Our passage describes the phenomena and gives an admonition, Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. (James 4:8b) Certainly this does not sound like a believer that has received a new heart and a new Spirit? Our Greek word is dipsychos (δίψυχοι) and is apparently a word coined by James. From dis (twice) and psuchē (soul) or "double-souled", double-minded. This was John Bunyan’s “Mr. Facing-both-ways." (A.T. Robertson) James 1:8 tells us that he/she is unstable in all of his ways.

This, in my view, is the same experience Paul dealt with at Corinth. He told them, "Are you not carnal and walk as men." They had been radically changed by God, but were now walking in their old manor of life. James takes a diferent angle and suggests that what we are actually doing is splitting our allegiance to God with other things. I have said in the past, anything that we are splitting our allegiance to God with has the potential of splitting our personality. That may sound like a psychological phenomena, but it is possible for a person to act like a Christian in some situations and become almost someone nobody recognizes in others. Beloved, this ought not so to be.

John Wesley has this note on James 4:8, "Draw nigh to God in prayer, and he will draw nigh unto you, will hear you; which that nothing may hinder, cleanse your hands—Cease from doing evil. And purify your hearts—From all spiritual adultery. Be no more double minded, vainly endeavouring to serve both God and mammon." So we see then the ongloing trap of falling into a desire for this present worlds goods. It is an ever present threat. I have no doubt that it would have been a temptation to Adam if he was here and had never fallen. Do we have an example of this in Acts? I think we do.

James gives his solution, purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. This statement reminds me of Ananias and Sapphira that were prepared to lie to the Holy Ghost over money and popularity because Satan had filled their hearts. (Acts 5:1ff) They may have had a new heart before, but now they have opened the door and Satan has filled it with his lies and reasonings. "The very verb used for 'filled thine heart' is the same for the filling by the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:31). Satan the adversary is the father of lies (John 8:44). He had entered into Judas (Luke 22:3; John 13:27) and now he has filled the heart of Ananias with a lie-- to lie to the Holy Spirit (pseusasthai se to pneuma to hagion)." (A.T. Robertson)

God has given the Saints a new heart, but that heart can beocme corrupted again because of this present evil world. This is why men like Ravenhill suggested that God could take an unholy man, make him holy, put him back into an unholy world and keep him holy. My solution for this is what James told us; purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. Purify is a word dealing with ceremonial cleaning. It is described at times as the work of God and others as the work of man. On our end we need to renounce anything that we have allowed, no matter what or how long we have entertained it and allowed it to split our soul into two different personalities.

So we see then that the enemy is always trying to lure us away- even after we have been truly saved. He is a defiler of sanctuaries. He wants to defile our Temple and set up all manor of idols in us. This is why I keep saying we have to keep our eye on the Temple motif troughout the Old Testament. The devil was always working to somehow defile the Temple or cause a problem there. Think about how the enemies of God came in and sacrificed a pig in the holy of holies during the 400 silent years, etc. Over and over from Dagon before the Ark to uzziah running into the Holy Place to do the work of a priest as a king. Satan is a defiler of God's santuaries. He did it to the sanctuary of the Garden of Eden and he will try to do it in us. We must renounce anything that tries to come up and challenge God or that would double our mind. Again, this is not what a Saint 'is', just like carnality is not normal for a Saint: but we are always in jeopardy of becoming these if we are not vigilant and watchful over our own lives. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/28 9:02Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Robert, It would seem then that James was admonishing those 'believers' he was familiar with, wouldn't you say?

 2012/10/28 9:31Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
Robert, It would seem then that James was admonishing those 'believers' he was familiar with, wouldn't you say?



I would say probably, no. This is one of the reasons that the book of James is a challenge. We have this salutation and address:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (James 1:1)

His address to the 'twelve tribes' ought to signal us as to who this writing is intended for. This is always important when doing exegesis and exposition. I am not- nor have I ever been one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The 10 tribes passed into legend when carried off by Assryia. Who could these people possibly be? Thiere is much speculation, but it shows the difficulty of reading James to begin with. I believe it is a New Testament canonical writing, but I read it more as the book of Proverbs. Many things said are general truths, but are not expoundings of the New Covenant as we find else where.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/28 9:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that the belief that the Immersion in the Holy Spirit (notice i didnt use the KJV word baptism)...that this experience as a second and distinct experience to conversion/salvation/born again...is a lie?

To call it a "Second and Distinct" experience is a lie in itself. Conversion and being born again can only come by one who has been baptized by Jesus Christ. Mark 1:8

When we give ourselves over to Jesus Christ by faith the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness and we have been justified before God as righteous but we are not born again, nor are we in the Kingdom of God. We have been forgiven and cleansed and now the vessel is ready to be born again from above, or to be immersed into the Holy Ghost. What makes this offensive is the way we have been raised and taught. I am very aware of the fact that this subject is highly volatile because many many peoples have been taught that they receive the Holy Ghost baptism as soon as they give their lives to the Lord or are baptized in water.

RobertW merely stirred up what the Holy Ghost has been saying for the last couple of years but I couldn't find the words to bring the whole thing together. I see it now and it's wonderful to behold.

If we call the Holy Ghost the "Second Blessing", than so be it, but lets not look at it as something that is an option, but something that we should not only want but need. He is the Operating System, we need Him to be installed into our hard drive, without this One Baptism we are not born from above.

I am thinking of the Children of Israel in Egypt. It was there that the blood was put on the lintels over the door. Remember they were in Egypt which represents the old man Adam, they had not yet stepped over to where God wanted them to be. Old things have not yet passed away for they were still under the bondage of their masters. Yet in the midst of that God covers them with the blood of a lamb. Egypt represents unregenerate man. Israel was protected under the blood, loved and favoured. They were protected because they aligned themselves with Moses believing that God sent him. When we repent and believe the gospel, believing that Jesus was sent by God to deliver us, we too are protected by the blood. Yea, further our sins are removed, being justified freely in the sight of God, we stand righteous before God by faith.

This has never changed since Abel right up to the last prophet martyred John. Men who believed God their faith was accounted to them for righteousness. This still applies today, yet those righteous men were not born again, having not received the promise.

I have not raced through this post with glee. I have sat here and wondered if I should send it to print, because people will be offended. But why weren't the Ephesians? Why didn't they argue doctrine with Paul? Why didn't they stand up to what they believed and held to their teachings?

The only thing that is coming to me is, Of a truth I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God. Matthew 18:3

 2012/10/28 9:56









 Re:

Robert said:

Quote:
But Paul said that there is only One Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). So which one was it?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 2012/10/28 10:12









 Re:

Quote:
When we give ourselves over to Jesus Christ by faith the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness and we have been justified before God as righteous but we are not born again, nor are we in the Kingdom of God. We have been forgiven and cleansed and now the vessel is ready to be born again from above, or to be immersed into the Holy Ghost. What makes this offensive is the way we have been raised and taught. I am very aware of the fact that this subject is highly volatile because many many peoples have been taught that they receive the Holy Ghost baptism as soon as they give their lives to the Lord or are baptized in water.



Im not sure what is meant by "offensive" in your post brother. But I can see how the divisions which are being drawn between believing and having newness of life will have profound implications for many people. How many on this thread remains to be seen. It is no small matter what is being drawn out. Neither do I believe it is being drawn our sufficiently well enough to resists any likely offence. It will cause some to stumble in the end of that I am sure as well. I accept that this is not intended but it will happen because the distinction is implicit as well as stated in parts of the thread. It is a distinction which when put simply is offensive in that it appears to contradict Scriptures regarding what constitutes the basis for a person to take confidence in Christ and to believe that they are born again and will therefore one day see God. It is also a distinction which by explanation of a single verse of Scripture in Ephesians chapter 4 is more than many simple hearted believer could easily understand. If the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God, then we are. No amount of seeking to devise explanations as to when we are baptised into Christ or else when Christ' own life becomes ours will alter or change that reality. But such explanations may disturb the faith of some who for a variety of reasons may not have confidence beyond what they first believed.

 2012/10/28 10:33









 Re:

Quote:
James' writings are unique in the New Testament so we have to look at them carefully.

Indeed, for they were addressed to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

I am going on on a limb here so bare with me, what I say here is all speculation so don't accuse me of believing it.

There seems to be slight differences between the gospel of the Apostles and the gospel of Paul. Paul says in three occasions that he refers the gospel as being his.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to "my" gospel.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to "my" gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began...

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to "my" gospel...

No one else speaks in this personal way save Christ Himself.

There are subtle clues,

Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them THAT gospel which I preach among the gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

"But privately to them which were of reputation", no doubt the Apostles. But notice how he is wording it.

He had to privately speak of it denotes that those who didn't have wisdom could find themselves arguing against it.

I have some ideas but I would have to privately speak about them.

 2012/10/28 10:33









 Re:

I had posed this question several posts back.Approved seems to have given something of an answer to it. My questin was, how were people like Abraham and David, saved. The New Testament says in Romans. and Galatians that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. The writer of Hebrews says says that the O.T. saints had tbe gospel preached to them. But ut was not combined with faith.

I am asking is it possible for one to believe in Christ for salvation and be covered by the blood, but not be born again? Is this tbe case of O. T. saints?

Bearmaster.

 2012/10/28 10:52
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Re-bearmaster. This has been answered I think. Most agree that those in the OT were justified by faith, but not born again (born of the Spirit). Robert and Approved are suggesting that this process is still possible today, but others like me understand that when someone today truely believes on Christ they are born of God by the Spirit.


_________________
Dave

 2012/10/28 12:57Profile





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