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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 15:19:37

Quote:
Considering Heb. 6:1,2, how 'bout we conclude that by context, all baptism[s] spoken of at various times can be, in essence, summed up as being of the ONE baptism that unites one in Christ, the Pentecostal baptism excepted because Jesus does the baptizing? [Interesting here that Jesus baptized from Paul [Acts 19] by the laying on of his hands and Apollos in Acts 18: 24-26, while it does not say but could very well have been as the house of Cornelius]


???



I have heard it said that the reason why the disciples at Ephesus had to be rebaptized was because they were likely baptized with the Baptism of John by Apollos and that that baptism was no longer valid. It had reached it's 'sell by date', so they had to be rebaptized. I think this is true.


But why anyone think John's water baptism__for the remission of sins, would be made obsolete, isn't it still being performed today? Paul didn't minimize it when inquiring of the Acts 19 disciples but rather informed them there was now more for them for their Christian walk.

 2012/10/27 18:39Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/27 15:38:18

Quote:
"He shall be in you" was fulfilled in John 20:22

Then where is our "Breathing on experience"?

Forgive me brother, but I cannot hinge our belief system on one verse. The book of Acts is shouting at us how the salvation process works. Out of the mouth of two or three witness shall every word be established and in the multitude of counselors there is safety. (proverbs11:14, 2Corinthians 13:1)


Did I not say that for everyone after the ascension [I should have made say after that initial one because it isn't recorded where Jesus ever did that again] was the new birth by faith__and the beginning of what we are given to learn Jesus?

The salvation shouted at us from Acts is nothing more than Believe and be water baptized. Everything else is for something else. Is there more to it than that you can point to?

 2012/10/27 18:44Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Croref,

Quote:
But why anyone think John's water baptism__for the remission of sins, would be made obsolete, isn't it still being performed today? Paul didn't minimize it when inquiring of the Acts 19 disciples but rather informed them there was now more for them for their Christian walk.



It is sometimes brought up because the Ephesians had to be RE-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Others who had been baptized while the Baptism of John was still in play were not baptized again in the name of the Lord Jesus, etc. as far as we know.

Repentance is indeed Paul's message. In fact, it was a message very similar to John Baptist's all during his ministry. But he baptized, not as would John Baptist merely unto repentance, but in the name of the Lord, etc.

Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (Acts 26;19-20)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 18:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The salvation shouted at us from Acts is nothing more than Believe and be water baptized. Everything else is for something else. Is there more to it than that you can point to?

Yes there is.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

In verse 16 is the believing and the water baptism.

But in verse 15, the Holy Ghost "Breathing on them", born again experience had not yet occurred.

If the "Breathing on them" is the receiving of the Holy Spirit and being born again, and they became believers and were baptized in water (according to your logic they are born again because the breathing on them is the born again experience), what is this other Holy Ghost that Peter and John is offering through the laying on of hands?

 2012/10/27 18:59
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/27 15:59:11

Quote:
The salvation shouted at us from Acts is nothing more than Believe and be water baptized. Everything else is for something else. Is there more to it than that you can point to?

Yes there is.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

In verse 16 is the believing and the water baptism.


Not for salvation or born again


Quote:
But in verse 15, the Holy Ghost "Breathing on them", born again experience had not yet occurred.



Not speaking of new birth but the Pentecostal baptism.




 2012/10/27 19:07Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 15:53:25

Hi Croref,

Quote:
But why anyone think John's water baptism__for the remission of sins, would be made obsolete, isn't it still being performed today? Paul didn't minimize it when inquiring of the Acts 19 disciples but rather informed them there was now more for them for their Christian walk.



It is sometimes brought up because the Ephesians had to be RE-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Others who had been baptized while the Baptism of John was still in play were not baptized again in the name of the Lord Jesus, etc. as far as we know.


Ah, OK! I forgot that passage. Interesting though that that was the venue [Name of Jesus] through which the Pentecostal baptism was imparted.

 2012/10/27 19:11Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: My view would probably be similar, but not exactly the same (although there are variations among these men as well). I believe that all Believers, past, present and future are 'justified' and have peace with God though the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, to me, is the 'first blessing' and everyone that is an heir to the righteousness that is of God by faith has this blessing.

Quote: A second blessing, in my understanding, is everything else God has promised in the New Covenant in Christ. It is the means by which we can be made partakers of the Divine Nature.

Thank you I am glad to find I am not alone...




_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/10/27 19:35Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re: Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

Ok, this is a doctrinal discussion, one I usually do not comment on since I think this like a woman playing football with the males..

Anyhow.

My initial reaction upon reading the question, and one that still remains is this: why does this question challenge a body? When a person becomes saved is God's business, not ours. If a body is walking with Him, let him take care of it - we have enough challenges to deal with without trying to figure out something that belongs to God's realm of judgement.

My opinion. Now I will bow out.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/10/27 20:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My initial reaction upon reading the question, and one that still remains is this: why does this question challenge a body? When a person becomes saved is God's business, not ours. If a body is walking with Him, let him take care of it - we have enough challenges to deal with without trying to figure out something that belongs to God's realm of judgment.

It's most important Ginny, because Paul is still asking the question, "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

If it was important to him to ask it then, we need to ask it again.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

If being born again comes by the One Baptism to which Paul speaks of, than why do we have a teaching out there that says that by saying the sinners prayer that one is automatically baptized into the Spirit?

Or words are added to the scriptures calling the Promise of God the Holy Ghost as a second blessing. "Second Blessing", where is that in the scriptures?

The lie has to be uncovered and exposed.

 2012/10/27 20:29









 Re:

Approved I want to be clear that I understand you before I say anything else. Are you saying that the belief that the Immersion in the Holy Spirit (notice i didnt use the KJV word baptism)...that this experience as a second and distinct experience to conversion/salvation/born again...is a lie? And needs to be exposed? Is that what you are saying?

 2012/10/27 21:36





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