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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

re-Approved. Quote:Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise...

"I am merely touching on this brother, perhaps the brother may have more understanding on the subject will expand this further. But sufficient to say, these OT saints had faith even though they did not receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. They were certainly saved being justified by faith even though they had not the Holy Spirit."


Yes I agree with you on this that the OT saints and all pe-calvary believers would have been justfied by faith and saved, yet not regenerated. However I think post-calvary all those who believe receive by faith the indwelling Spirit and are baptised into Christ, not only justified. As has been quoted " the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than 'the greatest' (JTB) under the OT law.


_________________
Dave

 2012/10/27 17:50Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Heydave,

Quote:
Yes I agree with you on this that the OT saints and all pe-calvary believers would have been justfied by faith and saved, yet not regenerated. However I think post-calvary all those who believe receive by faith the indwelling Spirit and are baptised into Christ, not only justified. As has been quoted " the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than 'the greatest' (JTB) under the OT law.



I think we have a great deal of agreement here. The only question I have if we take the position that a person is baptized into Christ by the Spirit upon confession and faith, etc., where can we see this happening in scripture as an event? Not just that we assume it had to have happened because a person has repented and believed, etc. This would bring about a radical change in a person if it happened. So it would seem to me to be an event that a person would never forget. If that makes sense. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 17:56Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 14:33:00

Hi Croref,

Quote:
The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ.



I have heard this said many times in Pentecostal circles, but I have never seen a scriptural justification for it. It is usually a matter of logical deduction. It is typically said to be 'power for service'. But this strains Ephesians 4:5 by making a seperate baptism 'into' the Body to go with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Paul says there is really just One Baptism. By that, it would appear he means, there is the One Baptism that all others point to. This would be an archetype baptism. It would further seem, that the greatest of all baptisms would be saved as the finale. Blessings.


Considering Heb. 6:1,2, how 'bout we conclude that by context, all baptism[s] spoken of at various times can be, in essence, summed up as being of the ONE baptism that unites one in Christ, the Pentecostal baptism excepted because Jesus does the baptizing? [Interesting here that Jesus baptized from Paul [Acts 19] by the laying on of his hands and Apollos in Acts 18: 24-26, while it does not say but could very well have been as the house of Cornelius]


???

 2012/10/27 17:57Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 14:56:14

Hi Heydave,


I think we have a great deal of agreement here. The only question I have if we take the position that a person is baptized into Christ by the Spirit upon confession and faith, etc., where can we see this happening in scripture as an event? Not just that we assume it had to have happened because a person has repented and believed, etc. This would bring about a radical change in a person if it happened. So it would seem to me to be an event that a person would never forget. If that makes sense. Blessings.





It does to me, Brother. There will be a fresh love affair with God that isn't there is the "nominal" Christian. How can I say that is because only the Holy Spirit has His focus of love on God and He is in the new born of Him who will express it through His flesh.

 2012/10/27 18:03Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 14:33:00

Hi Croref,

Quote:
The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ.



I have heard this said many times in Pentecostal circles, but I have never seen a scriptural justification for it. It is usually a matter of logical deduction. It is typically said to be 'power for service'. But this strains Ephesians 4:5 by making a seperate baptism 'into' the Body to go with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Paul says there is really just One Baptism. By that, it would appear he means, there is the One Baptism that all others point to. This would be an archetype baptism. It would further seem, that the greatest of all baptisms would be saved as the finale. Blessings.


I believe we must let the scriptures say what they say in this matter. Jesus is the baptizer of the Holy Ghost JTB spoke of. Ya gotta remember that Jesus was even baptized by this same Holy Ghost BEFORE He started His ministry_this after having been conceived by Him and then abode with Him before the "coming upon" for ministry on the day at the river. The scriptures are quite clear on this enough so to make it an absolute upon which all else is established.

 2012/10/27 18:11Profile









 Re:

Robert said:

Quote:
Not just that we assume it had to have happened because a person has repented and believed, etc. This would bring about a radical change in a person if it happened. So it would seem to me to be an event that a person would never forget.

A good example of this is when Philip went down into Samaria and preached Christ unto them. They heard the word, they saw the miracles etc.., but lets see how the scriptures show us the difference.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Notice verse 16

Three things were happening regarding the Holy Ghost.

1. ye know Him (The Samaritans believed in Jesus)

2. He dwelleth with you (The Kingdom of God was near luke11:20)

3. He shall be in you (Peter and John came down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit)

Verse 18 shows that Simon 'saw' something going on through the laying of hands that caused him to offer money. If it was a quiet infilling, why would anyone offer money, unless they wanted to see the same results?


 2012/10/27 18:14
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Considering Heb. 6:1,2, how 'bout we conclude that by context, all baptism[s] spoken of at various times can be, in essence, summed up as being of the ONE baptism that unites one in Christ, the Pentecostal baptism excepted because Jesus does the baptizing? [Interesting here that Jesus baptized from Paul [Acts 19] by the laying on of his hands and Apollos in Acts 18: 24-26, while it does not say but could very well have been as the house of Cornelius]


???



I have heard it said that the reason why the disciples at Ephesus had to be rebaptized was because they were likely baptized with the Baptism of John by Apollos and that that baptism was no longer valid. It had reached it's 'sell by date', so they had to be rebaptized. I think this is true.

When I think of Baptism in the Spirit in Acts 2:1ff I am gathering up everything in the OT I can possibly think of that relates to baptism(s) in order to see all of the significance of that great event. Bible words don't have definitions as much as they have histories. So we have to start with the first occurence of the concept of baptism and work our way through the bible building revelation into that word.

For example, in 2 Kings 5:14 we read, "Then went he (Naaman) down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." In the LXX the passage is rendered καὶ κατέβη Ναιμαν καὶ ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ. Here we have the Greek word ἐβαπτίσατο (ebaptizo). When Naaman went through his baptism he coould have came out of the water and said, "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new."

So when I think of baptism, I am thinking of an experience a person can come into where they are so radically changed, that it would be as the Syrian leader and soldier who was no doubt scarred and wrinkled- having his skin transformed into a little childs. This makes me think palengenesis or a return to ancestral characteristics.

I also think of Noah that was saved by water. (1 Peter 3;20-21) As the waters came down- he was distanced from the world and it was judged at the same time. When the door came down on the boat he could walk out and say, "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new."

I think of Moses as the Children of israel were Baptized into him in the cloud and in the sea. What happened? They looked back and Pharaoh (a type of Satan) and his army (a type of his devils) were all face down in the water. There was a flood of waters between them and Egypt (a type of this evil world) as they were being baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They could look behind them and say, "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new."

So when I think of 'baptism in the Spirit' I am pouring these and many others revelations that God has built into the concept in the event. Baptism into Christ by the Spirit will effect such change. "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new." This means a person has become a new creature and is utterly radically changed. They are now sons of God in such a way that Christ would not be ashamed to call them brethren. Hope that helps clear things up on my end. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 18:19Profile









 Re:

Robert, your words are not falling on deaf ears. Press on Brother it's getting clearer and clearer.

 2012/10/27 18:26
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Approved on 2012/10/27 15:14:31

Notice verse 16

Three things were happening regarding the Holy Ghost.

1. ye know Him (The Samaritans believed in Jesus)

2. He dwelleth with you (The Kingdom of God was near luke11:20)

3. He shall be in you (Peter and John came down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit)




"He shall be in you" was fulfilled in John 20:22. It was NOT a baptism but the first indwelling anyone had ever experienced. Take note that is was not a faith venture for the disciples I believe because of Jesus' prior relationship with when they learned Him for 3 1/2 years. With everyone else after the ascension it was by faith and was just the beginning of their learning process of Jesus and the Father for "bringing them unto Glory".


 2012/10/27 18:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"He shall be in you" was fulfilled in John 20:22

Then where is our "Breathing on experience"?

Forgive me brother, but I cannot hinge our belief system on one verse. The book of Acts is shouting at us how the salvation process works. Out of the mouth of two or three witness shall every word be established and in the multitude of counselors there is safety. (proverbs11:14, 2Corinthians 13:1)

 2012/10/27 18:38





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