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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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 Re:

Hi brother Robert,

Quote:
My view would probably be similar, but not exactly the same (although there are variations among these men as well).



From what I can tell all these men hold to the same view that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a separate and distinct experience to being saved/born again under the new covenant. There are differences as to what they believe to be the initial evidence (tongues) but that is a side issue. To contrast the other view, those such as John MacArthur (whom I respect deeply) hold to the view that there is no separate and distinct "experience" called the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and would say that at conversion, when we are born again under the new covenant we receive the Holy Spirit and thats the end of it. I disagree with MacArthur on this.

In Him,
Mark

 2012/10/27 16:56









 Re:

Coref said:

Quote:
We both know that by confession and faith [lived out] gifts one salvation. Being born again places him in the Body of Christ.

What Robert and what is rightly being divided here and what your sharing is not the same thing.

Before I totally misunderstand what was said, perhaps you can clarify it so we(at least I) can see where your going with this.

Thanks

 2012/10/27 16:58









 Re:

Quote:
Before I totally misunderstand what was said, perhaps you can clarify it so we(at least I) can see where your going with this.



Approved, who are you addressing, me? If so please be clearer in asking your question...what exactly do you want clarified?

In Him,
Mark

 2012/10/27 17:05









 Re:

Quote:
So are you saying there are two class of believers? Those who are Justified and have their sins forgiven and then those who are justified AND have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and are baptised into Christ? This would mean the first group are not in Christ.

Good question and my thoughts are with you brother on this issue. It's something that we all need to rectify in our thinking so there is absolutely no doubts on the matter. When I read this I thought of a verse that came to mind and I will share it here.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise...

I am merely touching on this brother, perhaps the brother may have more understanding on the subject will expand this further. But sufficient to say, these OT saints had faith even though they did not receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. They were certainly saved being justified by faith even though they had not the Holy Spirit.

New questions arise but I am going to leave off until these other questions are dealt with.

 2012/10/27 17:11









 Re:

Hey Mark, I was referring to Coref's post, I added the distinction. :o)

 2012/10/27 17:15









 Re:

Here is a commentary on Acts 19 from brother Zac Poonen that addresses this passage. Scroll to the 30min mark to find the appropriate place.

http://www.cfcindia.com/vbvaudio/Acts/10_Acts_17-24_19-22.mp3

Zac states that what happens in this passage is that the Ephesus disciples were "baptized in the Holy Spirit" after Paul laid hand on them, in the same manner that the other disciples were "baptized in the Holy Spirit" on the day of Pentecost.

Where am I going with this? My initial quest was to come to a clearer understanding of when and how the disciples and then these other Ephesus believers were saved/born again.

Out of that quest has come clarity (to me at least) that all of these then were already saved/born again, and that at Pentecost as well as when Paul prayed for the Ephesians, these already saved/born again individuals were then "baptized with the Holy Spirit", or endued with the power of the Holy Spirit. It was a second blessing and in addition to the first blessing of them being born again.

That is the conclusion of the matter (for me)...it has been profitable and if others want to continue the discussion please feel free.

In Him,
Mark

 2012/10/27 17:18









 Re:

Quote:
Hey Mark, I was referring to Coref's post, I added the distinction. :o)



No worries brother, but I am glad you asked the question in general at first "where are you going with this" as it helped me bring my own thoughts to a conclusion.

Wow, what a blessing this community is, what a blessing that we can have such an uplifting, Christ honoring discussion about doctrine and not resort to arguing or name calling. May we have many more like it!!!

Blessings,
Mark

 2012/10/27 17:22









 Re:

Indeed Mark.

I am not as near to coming to a conclusion on the matter, though I have much understanding from the Spirit of God, but to bring them in union with everything else requires that I submit to the Teacher that is teaching me through another. Usually the Lord expounds His word to me, but this season I believe that He wants me to listen to Him in His people. This has come at rare moments but I feel this is one of those times as what is being expressed is a confirmation that has been told me from the Holy Ghost, I just didn't know how to bring it altogether.

Bless you!

 2012/10/27 17:27
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Croref,

Quote:
The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ.



I have heard this said many times in Pentecostal circles, but I have never seen a scriptural justification for it. It is usually a matter of logical deduction. It is typically said to be 'power for service'. But this strains Ephesians 4:5 by making a seperate baptism 'into' the Body to go with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Paul says there is really just One Baptism. By that, it would appear he means, there is the One Baptism that all others point to. This would be an archetype baptism. It would further seem, that the greatest of all baptisms would be saved as the finale. Blessings.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 17:33Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi HeyDave,

Quote:
So are you saying there are two class of believers? Those who are Justified and have their sins forgiven and then those who are justified AND have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and are baptised into Christ? This would mean the first group are not in Christ.

This seems to contradict a number of scripture. e.g Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is not His (Christ's) and 1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the testimony that God has given us, eternal life, and this life is in His Son. v.12 He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son of God does not have life". It seems clear here that if you don't have the Spirit, you don't have the Son and if you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life. So how can some one be justified and have eternal life (be saved) without having the Spirit ot the Son?



The way I reckon with this at this point in my understanding is that there are varying ways that a person can be Christ's. When the Disciples had not yet received the Spirit they were still Christ's because the Father had given them to Him. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b) This is three things:

1. ye know Him
2. He dwelleth with you
3. He shall be in you

By implication, the Spirit was not in them at this time, but they are still Christ's. Having been born again, we are NOW the sons of God, that is to say, we are 'His' in the same way we are our earthly father's. We are not merely slaves that have been purchased with a price, or friends as Jesus called the disciples, but have been made SONS. This brings to pass the saying in Hebrews 2:11-13:

For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.” And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

If I were to own a person as my slave as happened in the 1st Century often, I could say that the person is 'mine'. Why? They belong to me and I own them by some means. But it would be a totally different thing for that slave to be supernaturally transformed into one of my biological sons. I could then say he was 'mine' in a way that is totally beyond what he was as a mere purchased possession. WKIP (we know in part).

Hope that explains further. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/10/27 17:47Profile





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