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"God has chosen to save men through the foolishness of preaching"

The root word for "preaching" means to open ones mouth and declare publicly.

Yes, signs and wonders shall follow apostolic ministry of them that believe. Our preaching should not only be in word, but in demonstration of the Spirits Power!

HOWEVER, if the Gospel isn't preached (that means the saving message of faith in Jesus Christ through what he did in bearing our sins on the cross), then where is the power in feeding people only? Red Cross does that (& the Red Crescent, by the way). And, if we only perform miraculous signs and wonders and no Gospel is preached, how will men be saved? That's a major set up for "lying signs and wonders" spoken of in scripture (The Todd Bentley, gold dust, angels wings, gold teeth, halo garbage).

I agree, our Gospel should be preached and when God ordains, demonstrated with power TO CONFIRM THE WORD PREACHED, but just feeding the poor and signs/wonders with no Gospel preached? The devil would love to gladly allow those imitations to occur, especially since "there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved" & "God has ordained to save men through the folloshness of PREACHING (that means declaring the Gospel message of Christ on the cross paying the penalty of our sin, which we can believe and receive justification by faith). Take that away, and you've taken everything.

In love, are we reading our Bibles, or chasing around "wow" ministries?

 2012/8/20 9:03


I ask again are these authentic miracles taking place? Are people being healed in the name of Jesus Christ? If so then this would be the grace of God in England itself. Because England is in that same nationalistic mind set. The gospel is a polemic belief system that appeals to the intellect but has no power to back it.

I am reminded that Jesus told Phillip in John 14 believe on the evidence of the miracles them selves. This is what is taking place in the third world. Miracles are taking place in the name of Jesus. Because of the miracles people are brought to saving faith and life in Jesus.

Would that God deliver us from our theological arrogance. And we walk in humility before him doing signs and wonders in his name. And testifying of his love and sacrificial death and resurrection for the sinner.

Posted by Bearmaster.

 2012/8/20 9:07

Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


Would that God deliver us from our theological arrogance.

i have observed and learned on this forum that its only 'theological arrogance' when its a theology that we dont agree with. if its theology we like then its correct, but if we disagree with sum1 then they arrogant. i think thats arrogant.

 2012/8/20 9:23Profile

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 530
America's Heartand


Deltatom stated

In England we have the street pastors and healing on the streets movement that go out on the street to help people without preaching the gospel to them

Are they praying for them "In Jesus name" and thereby Jesus is getting the credit and honor for it?

You also stated
the alpha course a course that has done more to damage evangelism than any other program as it stopped Christians from going on the street and it's false doctrine which does not talk about hell or repentance in the alpha course I know I have been through it.

I am quiet surprised by that. Week 8 of the Alpha course is specifically about sharing your faith with others. It does encourage people to share with those they already have connections and relationships with. In essence tell your family, friends,coworkers, and acquaintances about Christ. I can't personally see the problem with that. It may not be on the street but it is often the first time many of these have witnessed for Jesus. Telling your friends, family, anf coworkers is often much more difficult and requires more boldness as it actually carries risk of rejection by those we love. If those we do not know on the street reject us there is no personal relationship loss. I encourage everyone to witness about what Jesus has done in their lives to those who actually know them! Then also share with any of the general public that God brings into your path.

Jesus sometimes did the same. Remember the demoniac of the Gadarenes after he was delivered? Jesus said pretty much the same thing in Luke 8 when He stated
The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, “Return home and tell how much God has done for you.” So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.

Luke 8:38-39 NIV

The guy just went back home and told folks about what God had done in his life.

If people are prayed for in Jesus name and healed.... if folks are sharing what Christ has done in their lives with family, friends, neighbors, coworkers, and acquaintances.....well THANK GOD!

THANK GOD they are out praying for the sick and sharing their faith and taking ground from the enemy. THANK GOD they are not back at the church house with a few folks doing end times Bible studies, bemoaning how bad things are, complaining how no one is serving God, and criticizing the others who are out actually praying for the sick and sharing their faith!

 2012/8/20 9:29Profile


The greatest miracle has and always will be the saving of a mans soul, the transformation and regeneration of a former sinner into a saint and a child of God. Signs and wonders will follow that. The declaration of the Gospel, of the Truth, has always been and will continue to be the front line of the battle. It does take courage to stand and tell a person that they have an eternal destiny with hell outside of Jesus. It takes as much courage to tell them just how much Jesus loves them despite the fact that they are so far from Him.

There is a balance in this and the balance comes from the Holy Spirit and abides in love. Yet in all of that there is a requirement of boldness and an unashamedness of the name of Jesus. If the name of Jesus is not being lifted up, no matter where in the world, then physical miracles are meaningless. Its the Gospel that is the power of God unto Salvation.

We see from history that Wesley and Whitfield and others were often physically attacked when proclaiming the truth of Jesus publicly. As one who travels home to Scotland every couple of years and knows what is going on locally in this movement and others, it is my opinion that it is powerless. I agree with Delta's assertions, and I do so with sadness. As for verifications of actual miracles from Britain, this verification process is always murky at best.

In the Scriptures we see blind eyes open, we see paralytics stand and walk, we see the dead raised to life. I personally have not heard of nor seen these kind of miracles either happen or authenticated in the West. I believe if they did happen, God would probably keep it hidden from general view because of the circus we may make of it. In the West we would bottle it and sell tickets to the show. We have all seen the circus shows like Benny Hinn and the claims that he and others had made about seeing the dead rise in places like India and so on, only to fall apart when these claims were closely looked at. There has been a deep fascination with signs and wonders for some time now, I personally believe that this is so we will fall foul to the anti-christ and lying signs and wonders when he comes. In these circles, all I hear is talk about signs and wonders. Yet there is no greater wonder than the love of God expressed through Jesus on Calvary and the victory we have because of Calvary. Lets see that march forward every time and whatever follows that we shall praise God for............bro Frank

 2012/8/20 9:49

Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


Great word brother Frank.

 2012/8/20 10:04Profile


Agreed that the saving of a man's soul is the greatest miracle that can take place. But is God using the miracle power of the Spirit to bring people to saving faith and life in Jesus Christ? Are we going to call that false? I posted earier Jesus told Phillip, believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

I state again God is bringing Moslems to Christ through dreams and visions. People are coming to Christ through healings. Yet we in our rationalistic western mindset say show me proof. The thing is our arrogance will prevent us from having the faith that God can do miracles. This is why the hucksters and the false prophets are coming forth. Because we are denying the power of the Holy Spirit. We have relegated miracle power to the demonic.

Jesus, the Messiah of Israel went into his home town. He was despised and hated by his own people. Be could not do many miracles in his home because of tbeir lack of faith. Is this not what we are doing to Jesus today? We are despising his power, even excoriating those who believe in miracles. And because of our lack of faith we are not seeing the miracles of God in the American church.

And we wonder why the power of God Is being displayed in the third world and not in the west.

Posted by Bearmaster.

 2012/8/20 10:22

Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175



Most respectfully, I'm not sure if you're seeing/understanding the position that's being presented. I don't think anyone is discounting or dismissing the miraculous. They're just not saying that it's any selling point.

The OP was talking about a specific movement in the UK where miracles were the focus, and not the preaching of the Gospel. Not all the other stuff.

 2012/8/20 10:35Profile

Joined: 2012/8/13
Posts: 28


Oh sorry Deltatom, I had also missed a point. Only now realising that the original post was in reference to a specific movement that I happen to know nothing about, so *no comment* lol...


 2012/8/20 11:01Profile

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3530


"Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen." (Mark 16:14-20).

Jesus Christ has given the Church a commission to preach the gospel to every creature. All those that believe the good news of Jesus Christ will be saved. The healings, miracles, signs and wonders are not seperated from the preaching of the gospel but should accompany it. The Lord will confirm His Word with accompanying signs when the gospel is preached through the annointing of the Holy Spirit.

We have not seen this done all that much in this nation but it is happening quite frequently in the third world countries.

The Lord rebuked His own disciples when He appeared to them because of their unbelief and hardness of heart. Today, we are faced with the same unbelief and hardness of heart, and just as the Lord could not do many miraculous healings because of the unbelief of the people in his own town, the same applies to us today.



 2012/8/20 11:49Profile

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