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 Re:

There are only so many ways to say the DB was not arrested for his involvement in the plot to kill Hitler, he was arrested more than a year before the plot and was alive more than a year after the plot. Those thought to be part of the plot were delt with very swiftly, many being put up against a wall and killed right away. The fact remains that BD was still alive just days before the war ended and was never seriously considered by the authorities to be involved in this plot, although he knew so many who were.

I guess the charges that were made that he thought God was dead and that he did not believe in the ressurection and that he was a heretic will just be left hanging in the wind. The OP and idea of this thread was excellent, and then it was turned into a tearing down of the man, very sad. Not sure who benifits from that, certainly not the Body...............bro Frank

 2012/7/16 13:15
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Come on guys, its not like Bonhoffer is a Mormon and running for President...


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/7/16 13:21Profile









 Natural Ethics and modernistic thoughts lead you to man. Humanism.

"There are only so many ways to say the DB was not arrested for his involvement in the plot to kill Hitler, he was arrested more than a year before the plot and was alive more than a year after the plot.

Those thought to be part of the plot were dealt with very swiftly, many being put up against a wall and killed right away. The fact remains that BD was still alive just days before the war ended and was never seriously considered by the authorities to be involved in this plot, although he knew so many who were." Appolus

Frank: Did it ever occur to you that the reason DB, and many others were NOT immediately executed was for means of interrogation? and successful interrogation? All together after that night the investigation turned up 4980 suspects, all executed. Bonhoeffer was interrogated many times before his execution , and it is clear, that many, many of the arrested gave up names, and probably his own family or friends gave him up.

I have clearly stated my views, in light of bundles of writing, that I do not see Salvation, or a testimony as to ever being born again. I hope I am wrong, and I was not there at his death. The thief at the cross made it, didn't he. As far as doctrine goes, it's just off the wall, as noble as it may seem.






http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/julyplot.html
...........................................

"The Nazis implicated thousands of people in the assassination plot, including Bonhoeffer and three members of his immediate family (his brother Klaus and two brothers-in-law). Incriminating documents, hidden by his sister's husband Hans von Dohnanyi, had been found by the Gestapo. Although he did not yet realize the secret papers were in the hands of his enemies, Bonhoeffer was a condemned man. "

* [ How? did the Gestapo find these incriminating papers? I suspect one of his family or friends broke under torture, and began to give up many involved.]

http://www.awesomestories.com/religion/bonhoeffer/attempted-assassination-of-hitler

 2012/7/16 13:40









 Re: Natural Ethics and modernistic thoughts lead you to man. Humanism.

What was a noble idea dies a quick death. I was thinking about joining. Now I will seek the peace if the Besr den. I only pray Br. Issachar can still salvage something from this.

Bearmaster standing down.

 2012/7/16 14:04
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
This, of Bonhoeffer, is a lesson to us that may face the/an antiChrist as he did - that no one is above temptation and must by all means use this as 'a lesson' - that if a man with the heart of Bonhoeffer can be "maddened" enough to side with those that wanted the slaughter to stop by whatever means - then we need to use this example to strengthen our own Resolve, Now - before any such temptation should hit our own shores.



Exactly, JiG! That is my point. Lessons can be learned from everything, even our beloved heroes. We are, afterall, just mere men.

Pilgrim

 2012/7/16 14:54Profile









 Re:

I have no heros per say, but what I do know is that "talk is cheap" until we see those we love being tortured and put to death and the other innocents as well ... we don't truly know our own hearts at this moment of how we will react if we were witness to such atrocites - but what Pastorfrin taught me personally, that "Anger" of any type is within all of us and anger borders on hatred.
If it should ever be our turn to see such atrocites in front of our faces - will anger and hatred be present if we see 'anger' at one another even on just an internet forum.

No one can 'think rationally' when Angered.

To see prolonged suffering as Bonhoeffer and his contemporaries were exposed to - could shake anyone's 'resolves' - even to sound doctrine --- as Richard Wurmbrand testified to in his writings.

It's easy to sit in an air-conditioned home in completely peaceful surroundings and 'think' of what 'we' would do under these Extremes that both of these men were exposed to for years, nonetheless one day of testing by demonic cruelty.

Some humility at this present moment would be highly recommendable.

 2012/7/16 15:50









 Re: Natural Ethics and modernistic thoughts lead you to man. Humanism.

JIG writes...........

"Some humility at this present moment would be highly recommendable" I definately agree with that sister.

Tom writes............ "I have clearly stated my views, in light of bundles of writing, that I do not see Salvation, or a testimony as to ever being born again. I hope I am wrong, and I was not there at his death. The thief at the cross made it, didn't he. As far as doctrine goes, it's just off the wall, as noble as it may seem."

Well brother, doubling down even after your charges against him were refuted by extensive quotes. Shall we agree to disagree? We have done so before when speaking of Guyon and Tozer?.........bro Frank




 2012/7/16 16:12
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:



The prison doctor at Flossenburg watched Bonhoeffer die and went on to write these words…
“Through the half-open door in one of the huts I saw Pastor Bonhoeffer, before taking off his prison garb, kneeling on the floor praying fervently to his God. I was most deeply moved by the way this loveable man prayed, so devout and so certain that God heard his prayer. At the place of execution, he again said a short prayer and then climbed the steps to the gallows, brave and composed. His death ensued after a few seconds. In the almost fifty years that I worked as a doctor, I have hardly ever seen a man die so entirely submissive to the will of God.”


______________________________________________________

I wonder what would be said about my last moments if I were to die as this man did??

God bless
mj

 2012/7/16 16:23Profile









 My hopes for a revelatory, blessed book club....

"I think I am going to withdraw from taking part in this book study not because of what BT shared but because it seems that instead of reading this book to learn and glean what the LORD would have for us, there is every possibility that instead the words of another man who is no longer living will be picked apart to such a degree that all that will come from this is debates and more debates.
I don't want to debate, I want to learn what the LORD would have me and walk in that. So respectfully I will read on my own."..MaryJane:

This is not the book club study; it IS the discussion forum, and there will be differences here. This one is rather mild, as I see it, without overt anger, and a degree of respect, and some see it one way, and others another, but to pooh-pooh it as irrelevant, and "picking apart another who is no longer living" is not a wise approach, nor particularly mature.

It is very important, to compare, or "debate", as you say it, the doctrines and teachings of a man to the Bible, and the Spirit of Truth? Wouldn't you agree? There must always be a "proving out" of all things, and there always has in the church. There are heresies out there from famous men you know, that are subtle and dangerous. This is the nature of deception.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

This is the at the nature of discussion or debate, and without it, you have immaturity and deception, don't you? This discussion, is that.

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"

As far as the book club goes, do not allow debate, but keep it focused on the revelatory aspect of passages, and direct it to learning God's heart, and sharing it.

I would keep it closed by the week, by chapter, and only allowing those who read the book with you, who actually owned it off-line. Then, accept new members interested `at the cut-off date, Say Sunday.

Have a limited Rule book, such as no debate, what is God saying, and no negative, critical spirits allowed. I think it is a great idea. What you want could happen, easily, and I hope it does. Have a sign up sheet, and let her rip! Thr format will take form in time. The forum is not an outlined book club; it is a discussion round table with everyone joining in with different ideas, and the important ones to people do seem to be passionate, but that doesn't make it wrong.




 2012/7/16 17:49
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 To Tom :)

by Brothertom on 2012/7/16 11:49:33

"I think I am going to withdraw from taking part in this book study not because of what BT shared but because it seems that instead of reading this book to learn and glean what the LORD would have for us, there is every possibility that instead the words of another man who is no longer living will be picked apart to such a degree that all that will come from this is debates and more debates.
I don't want to debate, I want to learn what the LORD would have me and walk in that. So respectfully I will read on my own."..MaryJane:

This is not the book club study; it IS the discussion forum, and there will be differences here. This one is rather mild, as I see it, without overt anger, and a degree of respect, and some see it one way, and others another, but to pooh-pooh it as irrelevant, and "picking apart another who is no longer living" is not a wise approach, nor particularly mature.

It is very important, to compare, or "debate", as you say it, the doctrines and teachings of a man to the Bible, and the Spirit of Truth? Wouldn't you agree? There must always be a "proving out" of all things, and there always has in the church. There are heresies out there from famous men you know, that are subtle and dangerous. This is the nature of deception.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

This is the at the nature of discussion or debate, and without it, you have immaturity and deception, don't you? This discussion, is that.

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"

As far as the book club goes, do not allow debate, but keep it focused on the revelatory aspect of passages, and direct it to learning God's heart, and sharing it.

I would keep it closed by the week, by chapter, and only allowing those who read the book with you, who actually owned it off-line. Then, accept new members interested `at the cut-off date, Say Sunday.

Have a limited Rule book, such as no debate, what is God saying, and no negative, critical spirits allowed. I think it is a great idea. What you want could happen, easily, and I hope it does. Have a sign up sheet, and let her rip! Thr format will take form in time. The forum is not an outlined book club; it is a discussion round table with everyone joining in with different ideas, and the important ones to people do seem to be passionate, but that doesn't make it wrong.


__________________________
Tom you wrote: but to pooh-pooh it as irrelevant, and "picking apart another who is no longer living" is not a wise approach, nor particularly mature.

My response to you: I was not saying your or anyone else opinions are irrelevant or at least it was not my intention to do so. Sometimes in writing on the forum it can be difficult to convey exactly what I am thinking. I do not want to take part in debates. After reading through the different posts here in this thread I did think that the book club might end up being nothing more then debates and while that maybe how you feel led to spend your time (and that is perfectly fine) I do not care to. Sorry if you felt offended it was not my intention that is why I said it was not because of you that I was with drawing from the book club. Honestly it was because I know myself, I can be immature as you said and I do not want to get caught up in debates that may very well cause me to stumble into sinning against my LORD.

Tom wrote:It is very important, to compare, or "debate", as you say it, the doctrines and teachings of a man to the Bible, and the Spirit of Truth? Wouldn't you agree? There must always be a "proving out" of all things, and there always has in the church. There are heresies out there from famous men you know, that are subtle and dangerous. This is the nature of deception.

_______________________

my reply : Scripture is the final say and all that I read or take in I take to the LORD before I do anything further. I assume others do the same but perhaps they do not. I do not need to debate this topic with anyone, I stated that I have not read the entire book yet and indicated that I would start it over to read with others. My desire in doing so was to read with others who profess a love for CHRIST and what they might be seeing and then pray and seek GOD on what HE would have for me to take away from this mans works and what HE might have me leave behind.
_____________

Tom wrote: This is the at the nature of discussion or debate, and without it, you have immaturity and deception, don't you? This discussion, is that.
____________________________________

My response to you: I was not nor am I interested in debates they more often lead to one person or another attempting to win and argument and I find I learn very little when I involve myself. Pride tends to come in and there is that old self desire to be "right" In reading this book I was not attempting to be "right" or sway another persons point of view. IN taking part my only desire was to read through this book with others as I said an learn what the LORD might have for me and leave the rest.

I hope the book club goes very well and is what ever Greg and those who take part in it wish it to be. For myself I thought after reading this thread that perhaps I would be better off not putting temptation before me and yes I am immature in many things I am learning.

I hope you have a nice evening Tom.
God Bless you
mj

 2012/7/16 18:49Profile





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