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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Do you sin?

I have noticed that many of those that defend sinless perfectionism often avoid answering the simple question, "Do you sin?". They would make it out to be a more complicated question than it really is. The Word of God makes it very clear as to what sin is. It is transgression of God's perfect and holy Law whether in thought, word, or deed(1John3:4).

One reason many proponents of sinless perfectionism avoid the question is because they know that if they are truly honest with themselves and others they cannot really say they do not sin.

And many say that even if they do sin they still believe in the doctrine of complete sinlessness in this life, and try to promote it. Yet I believe it is not right to preach something to others that you yourself do not practice.

And then there are some who boldly lie by saying they do not sin when they actually do. I once knew such a person. I would see him commit sins and he would preach sinless perfection and claim it. He was deceived by this destructive doctrine and it was sad.

jimur, if you have the time, I would encourage you to check out this thread from not too long ago here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=45444&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0

This one may also be of interest:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45510&forum=36


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Oracio

 2012/7/6 0:35Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! 'Jimur'

Sin, What Is It?

The bible teaches that the devil is the source of all evil. He is identical with sin, sickness and death. He is the substance and author of unrighteousness. Without the devil there is no sin, and where he is, darkness reigns. Satan and his angels are united with darkness by means of eternal bonds. John says, "He who commits sin is of the devil"; this means: has been impregnated by the devil.

In the days of James there were people who wrongly thought that they were "tempted by God". When man commits sin, the origin of his iniquity is not in himself but in the evil powers whom he has had fellowship with. James 1:15 says that sin is born in the unseen world after having been conceived. The impregnation takes place from the outside.

Temptation may be passive as well active. It is passive when a person, through his desires, draws evil towards himself; active when he tries to convey it towards somebody else. As for God, the apostle shows that it is impossible for Him to be involved in any way: "God cannot be tempted with evil [passive] and He himself tempts no one [active]", (James 1:14).

God has nothing to do with sin. "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire". The devil shows the person something enticing [active], and then his desires begin to covet it [passive]. Never is evil the product of fellowship with God. This is impossible. "No one born of God commits sin, for God's nature abides an him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God", (1John 3:9).

God is spirit and, coming from Him, the Holy Spirit unites Himself with man's born-again spirit. Good works are the fruit of this fellowship. The fruits of fellowship with the evil spirits are sinful works.

The origin of good and evil are both in the spiritual world. In natural life it takes intercourse to conceive fruit. The same applies to the spiritual or unseen world. The results show in the works which are called after the conceivers: fruits of the Spirit or works of darkness. Thus sin is a fruit in the spiritual world, brought about as a result of fellowship between a human spirit and an evil one. In the visible world sin manifests itself by means of the flesh. as work of the flesh.

The bible uses the word sin in four different meanings.

1.
It says that sin came into the world through one man. Here the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master: Satan. He took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: "You were once slaves of sin"; "He who has died is free from sin", (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); "Set free from sin"; "Sin deceived me"; "So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me".

2.
However, just as child is named after his father so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. "I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin". "He who commits sin is of the devil". The verb "to sin" has the meaning of committing a sinful act. "Go and do not sin again". "Who sinned, this man or his parents?". "Be angry but do not sin".

3.
There is the conception and the birth of sin. In between the two above stages, sin is in the inner man in a kind of embryonic state.

This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world. Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet sin has not been brought forth as an act. An example of this is hate, of which the Lord said that before God it is regarded as murder. So is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

and, 4.
The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin the guilt or debt of sin stays behind in the soul. The bible calls this the treasure of wrath.
Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works.

The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins". Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made his Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be "the righteousness of God".

This righteousness is reckoned to us. "He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: "If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness (he goes on committing sin); in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord", (Isaiah 26:10).

This is an excerpt from a pamphlet titled "Bondage and Freedom" which is published on the TLJ Site:
http://www.tolovejesus.com/index.php/full-gospel-books/bondage-and-freedom

 2012/7/5 22:03Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Do you sin?

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll continue to study and
pray for understanding.
Just to answer a couple of questions, the folks with whom I am most in contact with who express this idea are really wonderful people. They just will not admit committing sin in their life at any time. Yet they do claim they are not perfect. All other statements are very vague and generalized apart from the scriptures they reference at times.
I'm afraid I may have asked a question which could lead to
some controversy and division so perhaps we should end this here. I do very much appreciate your input.
We can all be thankful and assured, Jesus saves.

 2012/7/5 19:55Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2005
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Do you sin?

I am just so thankful for the grace of God that has been so richly poured out in my life. I miss the mark so often it seems. Praise God for His forgiveness.


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Travis

 2012/7/5 16:42Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

To plainly answer the question, yes, to my shame I find that I sin daily, whether in thought word or deed.

I desire and seek to be filled with God's Spirit through prayer and meditation of His Word; some days I do that more than other days.

Throughout the course of any given day, my thoughts are not as perfect as I would like them to be all the time. I also stumble(sin) in my speech in being too harsh sometimes with others, or in other ways. I am sure I could be more devoted to the Lord and His kingdom than I am currently, so that would make me guilty of sins of ommission. So I find that I need the promise of 1John 1:7 and 1John 1:9 daily, the blood of Jesus cleansing me from all sin/unrighteousness.

That said, I also praise God for the victory I have experienced in Jesus Christ over and over since being born again of His Spirit back in 1998.

The Lord has broken the chains of sin in my life in a mighty way. He delivered me from alcohol and drugs, fornication and lust, debauchery, gang violence, a prison lifestyle and mentality, anger, hatred, racism, the list could go on and on. He has indeed brought me out of the darkness and into His marvelous light. He has pulled me out of the miry clay and set my feet upon a solid Rock which Christ Jesus my Righteousness and Sanctification and Redemption. He has put a new song in my heart, even praise unto my God.

If it wasn't for His amazing grace and mercy I would be spending an eternity in hell right now, or still completely lost having no hope and without God in this world.


The Lord has been faithful to deliver me from a multitude of temptations that would have ensnared me.

And even when I have been unfaithful He has remained faithful, and has lovingly disciplined me. I praise God for continuing to show me my shortcomings and disciplining me so that I may be more and more conformed to the image of His Son.

Some may call it defending sin; I think of it as being honest with God, myself and others, and avoiding a delusion and deception of the enemy.


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Oracio

 2012/7/5 15:13Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5506
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote:
"These seemingly sincere folks present a good amount of scripture in support of their belief. My personal interpretation aside, very good examples can be found in 1John as presented by the previous poster."

Are these people playing word games, i.e. are they simply saying that when a Christian "sins" that it does not count as a "sin" because they are a Christian? That somehow the atonement means that any wrongful act on the part of the Christian cannot be considered a "sin" because it has been paid for?

Example: One of these persons you are talking to commits a bad act. Do they: 1) deny that they ever committed the bad act, or rather 2) say that since they are "saved" and their past present and future sins are forgiven, that their bad act cannot really be considered a "sin?"

If #1, then these people are dishonest and lying (unless of course they are ALWAYS perfect little angels, which I sincerely doubt). If #2, they have a warped view of the atonement and are playing word games.


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Todd

 2012/7/5 15:07Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Do you sin?

I have met, known, and continue to associate with a surprising number of Christians who earnestly believe and teach a Christian can not and does not sin. People who bear fruit which is equal to and/or surpasses that apparent in my life. Some are very quick to question my salvation and even suggest I have lost it due to my [at times open] confession of a recent sin and claim I must be saved again in order to start anew. I'm not offended one might suggest I am lost, nor am I questioning my salvation, looking for justification, or attempting to debate the issue with those who are of this belief. I simply desire to better understand the particular view and or theology of the presence of personal sin in the life of a Christian. This being a non denominational oreinted forum I thought perhaps there might be some here who [openly] hold to these views. These seemingly sincere folks present a good amount of scripture in support of their belief. My personal interpretation aside, very good examples can be found in 1John as presented by the previous poster.

**edited in [openly]

1 John 3:6 (KJV)
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1 John 3:8 (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



 2012/7/5 13:47Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Do you sin?

What scares me is how many Christians defend Sin, It seems that many do not want a Gospel of deliverance from the bonds of Sin but rather only a gospel that saves from the punishment of sin.

We need to stop trying to Justify our circumstances by the Bible as did the pharisees but rather allow the Bible to transform our circumstances.

some scriptures that stick out in my mind are
John ch 8
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

((36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed))

1 John ch 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans ch 6
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid.(strongest negative in the Greek!) How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

We can live moment by moment in complete victory if we walk After the Spirit and not after the flesh
Galatians ch 5 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

there is not one temptation that we have to give into, not one sin that we have to committ, as Christians
1 Cor ch 10
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

But we never get to a place in this Life that we are incapable of Sin
1 Cor ch 10 v 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

If We Live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit Galations ch 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another

Lets Lay our circumstances to the side and believe the Scriptures and experience some victory.



 2012/7/5 12:19Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Yes. Though with Christ's help, less and less as time goes on.

 2012/7/5 11:33Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Guilty.


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Christiaan

 2012/7/5 11:26Profile





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