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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Born by nature without sin......mmmmm..No. you were born with a selfish/satanic n

RE:Brother Tom Wrote /You have fell into this deception, and many believe it heresy; I do. The name of the heresy is:
....Pelagianism....., which views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement.
It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation.
Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D.
These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)...http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism/


Hi Brother Tom, You say that I have fell into heresy because I do not agree with what the Roman Catholics taught at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D..???

RE: Brother Tom Wrote /But David says about himself "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me./

Yes that is what it says however what it does not say is: Surely I was sinful at birth,sinful from the time my mother conceived me even though that is what Edwin Palmer wanted it to say.
Who is the Brother of Abigail and Zeruiah ??
Who is the Father of Abigail and Zeruiah ??

RE:Brothertom /:These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)...http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism/

Here again I am not Catholic.

RE: Brothertom wrote /Now I understand why you think like you do. This is not the first post about this heresy here; and I am sorry you have fell into it. You have been indoctrinate; Dogma-tized by a man. This is a great lie. Yes, we all are born with a sinful nature within./

Sorry Brothertom, You do not know why I believe Like I do. Let me tell you why. Because for years I believed in a sinful nature and as Romans 7 as the normal Christian Life and I was a Slave to sin a slave to habitual sin gross disscusting habitual sin, telling myself well Paul probably was dealing with the same sin and besides It is just my old sin nature taking control. I wanted to stop but I could not, the more I tried the more I failed Romans 7 a man under the Law, Listen I could not overcome Sin on my own, the mainstream Christian books on how to get victory over sin that I had read, I found not to be much different from the teachings like AA uses.
Saintification is by Faith not Works, Yet what I see mostly of mainstream Christianity is that they teach Saintification by works. I see church sighns holding meetings For AA.
They do not seem to preach any power.

RE: Brothertom wrote /I suggest that you throw away these teachings that have swayed you against the Word of God, and begin to read the Word unswayed by any other, with the Holy Spirit guiding you. This may sound harsh, but your very salvation may be resting on how you address this issue by faith. The early fathers rejected it, wholeheartedly./

Amen, lets throw our traditions away and read the Bible and Rely on the Holy Spirit to guid us unto all truth. I do not doubt I am flawed in some of my understandings let me not become so assured in my beliefs that I would argue with God as did the Pharasies.
But what you wrote Brothertom used one verse and a what the early Roman Catholics taught at there Councils to try to convince me that your understanding is of the truth.

RE: brothertom wrote/ The early fathers rejected it, wholeheartedly./

Really who are you calling the Early fathers? Augustine??

Did You Write, Always a bad seed?? http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44973&forum=40&25

Augustine was a Roman Catholic
Augustine according to The Pilgrim Church a Church history book recommended by Leonard Ravenhill.
believed one had to be in Catholic Church to be saved.
Augustine taught in Regenerational Baptism, because of this and his view of Original Sin, Hence we have infant baptism. Brothertom I would encourage you to study Church history on how those whom believed in infant baptism treated those whom believed in believers baptism.\
Augustine also taught just war and persecution of the heratics
The new Foxes Book of Martyrs John Fox rewritten updated by Harold J chadwick p.56

referring to Papal persecutions and the Inquisition
/They justified the horrors they committed by wresing Old Testament Scriptures, and by appeal to (Augustine), who had interpreted luke 14:23 as endorsing the use of forse against heretics: "Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges,and compel them to come in,that my house may be filled."/

RE: Brother Tom wrote /I sincerely hope you get delivered. You were born in sin, and conceived in iniquity, and the stark thing for you to look at, is that yourself IS your nature, and it is sinful. Most do not want to look at this./

I really do not see a need of going back into the Bondage of hibutal sin and excusing it as a sin nature rather I Believe What I need to do is to press more into the reality that I died with Christ 2000 years ago and that I am dead and free from the bondage of sin and listen and be filled and moved of Gods Spirit. I need to more consentrate on Walking in the Spirit so that I do not fullfill the Lust of the Flesh. When God reavels sin in my
life as he does, I need to confess my sins,because he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But I need not use this as an excuse to sin. but he is faithful for he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
























 2012/7/8 23:16Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Well Jimur,

All I can say is thank you for starting a very good discussion. Conversations have a tendency to branch into other ideas. That's just the nature of conversations.

Pilgrim

P.S. I have never met anyone who claimed they are beyond sin.

 2012/7/8 23:37Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

as so well put by someone earlier, guilty! Yet desiring God's work to change me and for His strength each day to walk in the Spirit.

About sin:
sin =
1)
a) to be without a share in
b) to miss the mark
c) to err, be mistaken
d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

transgression =
1) a going over
2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
a) of the Mosaic law
b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law
iniquity =
1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
unrighteousness =
1) injustice, of a judge
2) unrighteousness of heart and life
3) a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness

but don't worry, when i checked all of these i noticed they are all feminine nouns, i guess that means this is a woman's problem :)

 2012/7/9 2:56Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

i guess the problem i see is that one who believes in sinless perfection believes they have come to perfect patience in their life, yet patience must be tested to be proven. Abraham and Sarah believed but they got impatient and figured God needed some help. Their impatience led them to work out their own solution to the situation, and then Abraham asked God to bless the mistake, the sin: Oh, that Ishmael would live before you! God said, no way!
If someone is sinlessly perfect do they believe they will never lack patience in any situation that arises in the future? Though you might claim you are trusting God for His continuing grace, yet aren't you trusting yourself for continued obedience.

 2012/7/9 3:09Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

quote: All I can say is thank you for starting a very good discussion. Conversations have a tendency to branch into other ideas. That's just the nature of conversations (pilgrim777)

I don't think you misunderstood, but just in case. This is an interesting discussion and very informative. Branching is often the beauty of discussion.

 2012/7/9 4:53Profile









 Re:

QUOTE

On the other hand, if you only believe and hope in an experiential righteousness you have no real hope or assurance of salvation. In this mindset, as soon as you see any one sin in your life, you consider yourself to be lost. And you may very well be lost because you are not trusting in Christ and His righteousness but in your own. Oracio

-------------------------------------------------------------

It was the opposite for me when I was walking in sinlessness. The presence of God was just so powerful and the experience of seeing daily effects of having His power, along with another effect which is to have some authority over nature meant that it was impossible to doubt yet when I was depending on positional righteousness and seeing the stark contrast between what was going in inside me compared with what it was supposed to be like, made me have many doubts.

I did not have to worry about sinning as the new nature means that it comes naturally and He promises in Jude to keep us from falling. There was no fear involved but it is a decision one takes to depend on the flesh and become open to falling.

 2012/7/9 6:41









 The mixture is subtle, but it is not complicated.

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive!".....

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN comes to the Father, except through Me!"... [and especially through his own good moral choices.]

And this is the affect of the lie, the heresy.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; [ or your good moral choices derived from the Law ] ye are fallen from grace!"

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."


P.S. "I have never met anyone who claimed they are beyond sin." Pilgrim777

Well, I take that to mean true Christians, Rick. There are many cults and the like who do not believe in sin, or having a sin nature. This teaching, in the end, denies the atonement of the Blood of Christ only, by teaching that man could attain holiness by obeying the moral commands of the law, and then partially accepting grace through Christ when one fails.

Why is this so important? It seems kind of "picky" doesn't it? The belief that we have the power to "save" ourselves by moral choice cuts across the need for the Cross itself, and diminishes Jesus' willful sacrifice downward as simply an element of Salvation, an accessory, if you will. It seduces the naive believer into a semi-faith of the Law and Christ, the same as the wicked Judaizers that plagued Paul.

"Jesus gave grace, sure, but it is up to me to choose to be good, and I can be!"; even holy into sinless perfection. In the end, it is Anti-Christ, and extremely subtle in it's attack upon true Christian faith. In my view, it is satanic. We are saved by Grace, through faith, and that in the holy sacrifice of Jesus' Cross alone, plus nothing. Our moral choices are like dung in the end of things, and thinking so is the same pride-lie the Pharisees taught; 'Whited Sepulchers" Jesus named them. Looking clean and white, but with dead man's bones inside.

This heretic also taught that several men in the Old Testament had attained unto the sinless state.

Here are the statements of this heretic:*

1. That Adam would have died even if he had not sin;
2. That the sin of Adam injured himself alone, not the human race;
3. That newborn children are in the same condition as Adam was before the Fall; corollary; that infants, though unbaptized, have eternal life;
4. That the whole human race does not die because of Adam's death or sin, nor will it rise again because of Christ's resurrection;
5. That the Old Testament Law, as well as the New Testament Gospel, gives entrance to heaven; and
6. That even before the coming of Christ there were men who were entirely without sin......

[ Sadly, in his later years, Charles Finney adapted this wicked doctrine, and taught it; right down to the jot and tittle.] If Pelagius was the Joseph Smith of the Mormons, Charles Finney was the Brigham Young in the modern era.

*[ references pasted from angelfire.com]..[ direct quotes from Pelagius]

"Pelagius rejected the teaching of “original sin,” the results of the Fall upon humanity. According to him, Adam’s sin in no way made humans corrupt, but instead “over the years our sin gradually corrupts us, building an addiction and then holding us bound with what seems like the force of nature itself.”

Humans by nature have a clean slate, and it is only through voluntary sin that humans are made wicked.

Potentially, then, one could live a sinless life and merit heaven.

If God called humans to live moral lives, Pelagius thought, it should be within their power to carry out such command" IE: be made holy by keeping the moral Law of God."*


Don't be muddied by the seeming complexity of this issue. It wraps itself around grace and faith, but naked, it stands proclaiming that man needs no savior, that we can attain Heaven another way, our way. This is the mixture: It may acknowledge Christ as needed crutch now and then, as it receives His Atonement as only a needed accessory to my wise moral choices.

In believing this, your heart faith becomes polluted, and you no longer view Christ as the only way, and there-by the only Lord. It has polluted many churches and streams, and has caused the falling away of many, just as the Judaizers did, and Paul knew it. By trusting in this teaching, beware, that you too do not "FALL FROM GRACE."

It scares me in it's subtlety.

 2012/7/9 8:38
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re: The mixture is subtle, but it is not complicated.

Quote:
Don't be muddied by the seeming complexity of this issue. It wraps itself around grace and faith, but naked, it stands proclaiming that man needs no savior, that we can attain Heaven another way, our way. This is the mixture: It may acknowledge Christ as needed crutch now and then, as it receives His Atonement as only a needed accessory to my wise moral choices.

In believing this, your heart faith becomes polluted, and you no longer view Christ as the only way, and there-by the only Lord. It has polluted many churches and streams, and has caused the falling away of many, just as the Judaizers did, and Paul knew it. By trusting in this teaching, beware, that you too do not "FALL FROM GRACE."



Well said. I agree with every word (along with the rest of your post).

 2012/7/9 8:53Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re: The mixture is subtle, but it is not complicated.

Again another problem with sinless perfection, and I think this ties into your new post Pilgrim (saved IN sin):

2 Tim 3:16-17 - "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, that the man of God may be adaquate, equipped for every good work."
To me that sounds like it is through the word of God that I learn and am trained and adequate to live in righteousness. That would mean that in order to be sinless perfect i would have to know and understand the entirety of scripture, not one misunderstanding, not one scripture forgotten or dropped, having a complete understanding of it. We know there is only One who had this knowledge and wisdom: The Word of God Himself.

 2012/7/9 13:13Profile









 Re:

The training reproof and correction are to bring us to the state where it is not the written word but God Himself living within who teaches and guides. It is a state where we live it naturally whereas previously God`s ways went against that thing inside of us that must be put to death, or rather be made effective by faith. If we dont believe we can be without sin then we never will be.

 2012/7/9 15:20





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