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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Brothertom

Re: Brothertom wrote /But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Romans ;written by Paul the Apostle AD 57-58..age 50-55?/

Romans 7 is a first person narrative of a past tense event

Christians should not have 2 opposing natures
Definition for bipolar: having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bipolar



 2012/7/8 16:29Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

again, thanks pilgrim for the clarification there.

One huge problem I see with sinless perfectionism is that it denies the positional righteousness of Christ and focuses only on an experiential righteousness. But I believe Scripture teaches we must have both to be true believers.

If you only believe in a positional righteousness you justify sin in your life, seeing the grace of God as a license to sin. 1Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:19-21, and Jude 1:4 warn about that:"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

On the other hand, if you only believe and hope in an experiential righteousness you have no real hope or assurance of salvation. In this mindset, as soon as you see any one sin in your life, you consider yourself to be lost. And you may very well be lost because you are not trusting in Christ and His righteousness but in your own.

Thus the need for a biblically balanced view of justification by faith in Christ alone.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"(1Cor.1:30)


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Oracio

 2012/7/8 16:38Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
One huge problem I see with sinless perfectionism is that it denies the positional righteousness of Christ and focuses only on an experiential righteousness. But I believe Scripture teaches we must have both to be true believers.



Well said, Oracio.

Righteousness reckoned to us at the new birth through faith is the door into the Sheepfold where we are commanded to then walk in righteousness. You cannot climb up some other way into the Sheepfold, though many try (many false doctrines).

Quote:
If you only believe in a positional righteousness you justify sin in your life, seeing the grace of God as a license to sin. 1Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:19-21, and Jude 1:4 warn about that:"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."



Absolutely and very well put. That is a false gospel and false security and is really unbelief, because they apparently believe in the power of God to justify but not to sanctify (deliver from present sin) and without holiness no man will see the Lord. That is what OSAS is built on - Positional Righteousness or Justification ONLY.

[quot]On the other hand, if you only believe and hope in an experiential righteousness you have no real hope or assurance of salvation.


Yes, the man-made doctrines that abound deceived many into believing that if they have positional righteousness, then that is all they need and all will be well. They deny the walk of righteousness, sanctification and holiness.

True righteousness by justification MUST HAVE FRUIT!

Quote:
In this mindset, as soon as you see any one sin in your life, you consider yourself to be lost. And you may very well be lost because you are not trusting in Christ and His righteousness but in your own.



This is the problem. Trusting in one's own works and calling it God's works.

Quote:
Thus the need for a biblically balanced view of justification by faith in Christ alone.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"(1Cor.1:30)



Yes, He became that for us and BECOMES that for us daily in reality and experience. Only for those that ARE IN CHRIST JESUS as the first few words say. In other words, 1 Cor 1:30 is saying it is a work of Christ and not a work of man and will never be a work of man.

Thanks a lot, Oracio.

Pilgrim

 2012/7/8 17:28Profile









 You need not overcome. You have made the top of the class.

Romans 7 is a first person narrative of a past tense event.
Christians should not have 2 opposing natures.
Definition for bipolar: having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views. Proudpapa.

So when Jesus said that "If any man come after me, let him deny himself, and pick up his cross daily, and follow me!"...who was he talking to?

Why would any one deny himself, and how is that possible,? in that it applies to an extrovert personality denying the other within a man. Then why would one NEED to pick up his cross?; if he had entered into sinless perfection? No need to deny or die to oneself, in that he had become one and at peace with reaching the exalted [ non-existent] plateau of perfection.

So, if you believe this juxtaposing convoluted mass of contradictions, to both the Word and testimony, surely you will produce one example of anyone you know, or even know of; I want to meet him or her. [ dead saints don't count..]

I want to see what Jesus really looked like.

Pretty cool gospel. I have attained to maturity, even fully. No need to strive for holiness, I have attained. I suppose OSAS comes in here somewhere; Just gliding along.

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."


These exalted ones: Why did they have to overcome? and not love their own lives? They must have forgotten that they were sinless, and perfected. Everyone has memory lapses, I suppose.

 2012/7/8 18:43
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: You need not overcome. You have made the top of the class.

Hi Brother Tom, My point is becoming very misunderstood, but that is understandable, I was not real clear nor did I go into much detail. I do realize that there is a war between the Flesh and the Spirit.

I will quote Charles Finney whom also was very opposed to Augustines Original sin doctrine.

Are Men Born Sinners?
by A. T. Overstreet
Excerpts from Charles G. Finney's Sermon
THE EXCUSES OF SINNERS
Men plead a sinful nature for their excuse. And pray, what is this sinful nature? Do you mean by it that every faculty and even the very essence of your constitution were poisoned and made sinful in Adam, and came down in this polluted state by inheritance to you? Do you mean that you were so born in sin that the substance of your being is all saturated with it, and so that all the faculties of your constitution are themselves sin? Do you believe this?
I admit if this were true, it would make out a hard case. A hard case indeed! Until the laws of my reason are changed, it would compel me to speak out openly and say--Lord, this is a hard case, that Thou shouldst make my nature itself a sinner, and then charge the guilt of its sin upon me! I could not help saying this; the deep echoings of my inner being would proclaim it without ceasing, and the breaking of ten thousand thunderbolts over my head would not deter me from thinking and saying so. The reason God has given me would forever affirm it.

But the dogma is an utter absurdity. For, pray, what is sin? God answers--"transgression of law." And now you hold that your nature is itself a breach of the law of God--nay, that it has always been a breach of God's law, from Adam to the day of your birth; you hold that the current of this sin came down in the veins and blood of your race--and who made it so? Who created the veins and blood of man? From whose hand sprang this physical constitution and this mental constitution? Was man his own creator? Did sin do a part of the work in creating your physical and your mental constitution? Do you believe any such thing? No; you ascribe your nature and its original faculties to God, and upon Him, therefore, you charge the guilty authorship of your "sinful nature."

But how strange a thing is this! If man is in fault for his sinful nature, why not condemn man for having blue or black eyes? The fact is, sin never can consist in having a nature, nor in what nature is; but only and alone in the bad use which we make of our nature. This is all. Our Maker will never find fault with us for what He has Himself done or made; certainly not. He will not condemn us, if we will only make a right use of our powers--of our intellect, our sensibility, and our will. He never holds us responsible for our original nature. If you will observe, you will find that God has given no law prescribing what sort of nature and constitutional powers we should have. He has given no law on these points, the transgression of which, if given, might somewhat resemble the definition of sin. But now since there is no law about nature, nature cannot be a transgression.

Here let me say, that if God were to make a law prescribing what nature or constitution a man must have, it could not possibly be otherwise than unjust and absurd, for the reason that man's nature is not a proper subject for legislation, precept, and penalty, inasmuch as it lies entirely without the pale of voluntary action, or of any action of man at all. And yet thousands of men have held the dogma that sin consists in great part in having a sinful nature. Yes, through long ages of past history, grave theologians have gravely taught this monstrous dogma; it has resounded from pulpits, and has been stereotyped for the press, and men have seemed to be never weary of glorifying this dogma as the surest test of sound orthodoxy! Orthodoxy!! There never was a more infamous libel on Jehovah! It would be hard to name another dogma which more violently outrages common sense. It is nonsense--absurd and utter NONSENSE! I would to God that it were not even worse than nonsense! Think what mischief it has wrought! Think how it has scandalized the law, the government, and the character of God! Think how it has filled the mouths of sinners with excuses from the day of its birth to this hour!

Now I do not mean to imply that the men who have held this dogma have intelligently insulted God with it. I do not imply that they have been aware of the impious and even blasphemous bearings of this dogma upon Jehovah;--I am happy to think that some at least have done all this mischief ignorantly. But the blunder and the mischief have been none the less for the honest ignorance in which they were done.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs23.htm

 2012/7/8 18:58Profile









 Born by nature without sin......mmmmm..No. you were born with a selfish/satanic nature.


Hi Brother Tom, My point is becoming very misunderstood, but that is understandable, I was not real clear nor did I go into much detail. I do realize that there is a war between the Flesh and the Spirit.

I will quote Charles Finney whom also was very opposed to Augustines Original sin doctrine...Proudpapa

Finney writes:

"Did sin do a part of the work in creating your physical and your mental constitution? Do you believe any such thing? No; you ascribe your nature and its original faculties to God, and upon Him, therefore, you charge the guilty authorship of your "sinful nature."Charles Finney

This is at the root of Finney's confusion:IE, there is a difference between our nature, which is of God, all the way to our mental facilities and eye color; and and it being a sinful one. IE, we were born holy by God' for God would never create something faulty. He believes we begin without sin.

Did you know that Finney believed, at lest theoretically, that if a child made the right choices in life, he or she could lead a sinless life? What is the need for the Cross Proudpapa? Jesus then had no result in offering His blood and body, did he? The cross of Christ is to no affect, or of any relevance if man can attain to his own salvation, does it?

But David says about himself "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom."

You have fell into this deception, and many believe it heresy; I do. The name of the heresy is:

....Pelagianism....., which views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement.

It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation.

Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D.

These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)...http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism

Now I understand why you think like you do. This is not the first post about this heresy here; and I am sorry you have fell into it. You have been indoctrinate; Dogma-tized by a man. This is a great lie. Yes, we all are born with a sinful nature within.

I suggest that you throw away these teachings that have swayed you against the Word of God, and begin to read the Word unswayed by any other, with the Holy Spirit guiding you. This may sound harsh, but your very salvation may be resting on how you address this issue by faith. The early fathers rejected it, wholeheartedly.

Since it is dogma driven, I will not argue it. I will simply, as I have, declare my position and offer scriptural references to why I think as I do. Almost all of those swallowed by dogma, offer their theologians to do so, as you have done.

I sincerely hope you get delivered. You were born in sin, and conceived in iniquity, and the stark thing for you to look at, is that yourself IS your nature, and it is sinful. Most do not want to look at this.

 2012/7/8 19:38
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3235
Texas

 

Wow! do I really have to read all this to know if I as a Christian can sin? or can I just get a simple yes or no answer? I always thought this scripture was pretty simple and to the point.
1 John 1:9 (NLT)
But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.


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Mr. Bill

 2012/7/8 20:11Profile
learnermike
Member



Joined: 2010/2/24
Posts: 24
Oklahoma

 Re:

I have not read the whole thread but I thought the original question is a great question. I would answer it like this - We better not!
Our Lord said - If your right hand offends thee, cut it off! Because that offense could cause you to lose your soul! (paraphrase)
I think we give ourselves way too much room. The Lord told us to repent (change our mind and purpose / strong's ) and we better do it


_________________
mike russell

 2012/7/8 21:32Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
Wow! do I really have to read all this to know if I as a Christian can sin? or can I just get a simple yes or no answer?



Well, he did ask for our personal perspectives and interpretations. Here is part of the original OP.

Quote:
Would some of you folks help me to better understand such perspectives from your personal thoughts and interpretations? ie Do YOU sin?



Pilgrim

 2012/7/8 21:37Profile
jimur
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Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Do you sin?

QUOTE: Well, he did ask for our personal perspectives and interpretations. (Pilgrim777)

Oh yes, and I honestly appreciate the input very much! They are most enlightening. I might draw attention to the beginning statements of my opening post. (jimur)

QUOTE: This seems a simple question. I'm no longer sure the answer is quite so simple.(jimur)


I especially like statements made within the very first response to the question.(jimur)

QUOTE IN PART: Yes, your question would be a rather simple one to answer ...

Whatever the case, I have never met a single person nor have I read of anyone participating in this Forum who has claimed to be somehow beyond sin.
Have you? END QUOTE



IMHO Often, as we seek to know more and more of God and His Word we tend to loose very basic simple biblical wisdom. We deluge ourselves with word studies, in depth analysis of biblical text, theologies, commentary, ideas and opinions of others and eventually end up with an understanding acceptable to self. After a while we begin to toss about words which have little to no meaning to most lost sinners as well as many who are saved. All which serve only to further their existing confusion or a means by which to impress others with whom we discuss this so called "deeper understanding" we have obtained.

I submit this thread as evidence to this. Thus far we have 7 pages of response consisting of 68 replies, and 1,660 views. Fewer than 1/3 of these replies contain a definitive yes or no answer to such a simple question. I am also curious about that 1,592 views. I wonder what percentage did not reply due to either intimidation, a lack of understanding, or shear boredom of content.

Don't get me wrong. We live in an era when we [esp. U S Americans] have access to tremendous resources of information non existent in the not too distant past. I truly wish I had remaining time and ability to read, digest, and study every slip available. I am not without fault in this area. However, I honestly believe this has helped to contribute to what appears to be the greatest "falling away" and lack of growth in church history.

Benjamin Franklin is quoted as having said, "Everything should be as simple as possible; but not simpler."

One very dear made this statement to me about 50+ years ago;
"Simple words is simple understood." This phrase has more meaning to me today than ever.

Again a heartfelt thank you to everyone participating in this thread and if allowed the pleasure, a SIMPLE little shout out for nostalgia.

I LOVE you Granny!!!.....and I do LOVE Jesus.

 2012/7/8 23:14Profile





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