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Most Christians are content to believe that the best they can do is perhaps sin a little less after their rebirth.
If I am not mistaken (and correct me if I am misinterpreting you, Blayne), I think he is saying that MANY HAVE COME TO THIS PLACE(through wrong teaching and man-made doctrine) SOMETIME AFTER THEIR NEW BIRTH.
There is doctrine out there that "lowers the bar". That says you cannot overcome sins (of course WE can't). At some point in many Christian's lives, they take a left turn on the road of men's doctrine and they rationalize what "walking in the Spirit" means.
I don't think Blayne is saying that when someone is truly born-again these are their initial thoughts. Anyone who has been truly born-again has experienced an immediate hatred for sin and desire (place in them by the Law of the Spirit) to not sin against the Lord even once. The Spirit leads one to put to death the deeds of the flesh and when you experience this reality and subsequent closeness to God, it is wonderful.
By and by many will experience in their Christian life the watering down of the Word by man's teachings until they are comfortable with sin in their lives. This is not the walk that God has called us to.
Blayne, please correct me if I am misspeaking for you.
| 2012/7/8 12:35||Profile|
Whittier CA USA
| Re: |
It is hard to describe what it is like to be in this state. It can be compared with being in love, that feeling of joy and excitement inside, that feeling of being in exctacy, bubbling up inside and the presence of God being so strong like the time when you first came to Christ and were forgiven. Once one has experienced it there is nothing to compare it to. The words in scripture suddenly have real meaning and especially the words joy and freedom. In this state there is absolute healing of all the scars of life. I went for over 30 years not knowing what I was missing but now I do. Nothing is impossible when one is in this state and sin is not even in the picture. Pleasing God is the only thought.(krautfrau)
Brenda, that kind of experience is available for every child of God who is saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. One does not have to adhere to this doctrine which you adhere to to have that kind of experience. By God's grace I've had such experiences throughout my walk with the Lord.
They are baptisms or fillings of the Holy Spirit. I would agree that during that moment where one is caught up in the holiest presence of God one is purged of all sin, like Isaiah in Isa.6:1-8 and like John in Rev.1:17.
There have been and still are men and women of God who have had such experiences with the Lord who do not adhere to sinless perfection, but rather acknowledge their own shortcomings. The sad thing is that you would call them unsaved if they sinned but once in the course of a day.
Sin is sin Brenda, whether in thought word or deed, ommission or commission. It will not work to call certain sins "mistakes" or other names. It makes you proud and self-righteous and you don't even realize it.
The following scriptures declare the good news of salvation through Christ by faith, for yours and others' consideration here:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith.(Rom.1:16-17)
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29"(Rom.3:21-29)
"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:7 Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.(Rom.4:1-8)
"Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.(Rom.10:1-3)
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith.12 Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them.13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree", 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."(Gal.3:10-14)
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"(Eph.2:4-10)
The same kind of faith that saved Abraham and all the other OT saints, is the same kind of faith that saves us today. It is a humble trust in the God who shows mercy to all who come to Him by faith.
| 2012/7/8 11:57||Profile|
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Thank you for your reply, Sister.
Sometimes, I think that trying to convey things in text form has us talking past one another and I'd like to just leave this thread with the portion that challenges and comforts me most, in the same chpt.
Thank you again for the conversation. GOD help us all!
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
| 2012/7/8 11:55|
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Quote: Who are these so called Christians you speak of?
Most Christians are content to believe that the best they can do is perhaps sin a little less after their rebirth.
There is not a believer, a born again believer that I know of that believes that. No one even considers the thought of sin a little less after their rebirth. The thought doesn't even compute. The varied believers from all walks of life, have a faith toward God and they want to please Him.
What they don't understand is why they are sometimes driven to sin. All believers everywhere know exactly what I am talking about. They've been there and many are still there. The accuser of the brethren, coupled with their own condemnation is there to make sure that they never rise up to be anything more than what they are. The good news is that God is not condemning them, AT ALL. A broken reed will He not break and smoking flax will He not quench.
Paul said it so well,
Romans 7:17 Now then it is NO MORE I THAT DO IT, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is NO MORE I THAT DO IT, but sin that dwelleth in me.
There is a sin that is in me (that is my flesh) that is doing it, not me.
We need to make those distinctions when we see brethren falling headlong into sin and we automatically condemn him for not being a real believer.
Now if it is the sin that dwelleth in me, how can I be like Adam, since it's not me that is doing the sin?
Ah the mysteries of the gospel.
| 2012/7/8 11:32|
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Question : Have you read the verses Paul wrote in Phil 3:7-21 - Romans 8:28 being for vs 29 - Heb 4:15 and the promise of 1John 3:2?
Answer : My understanding of the following verses is : Phil 3:12 Paul is speaking of his ministry not perfection and this is clear in verse 15 `let us, as many as be perfect`. Romans 8:28?. Heb4:15 the writer continues to say therefore (as a sinner) let us come to receive mercy and grace. In 1John 3:2 the little children (2:28) are to wait for His coming when they will be fathers (entirely sanctified)
Question : are we there, every second of the day?
Answer : If we can be there for a short whilst held by the power of God why not there all the time, as pillars in the temple no more coming in and out.
Question : Jesus ate when The Father told Him He could eat. He slept when The Father told Him that He could sleep. Every single step He took was ordered of The Father. He did nothing of Himself. He was led by The Spirit every second of every day. He never forgot to do anything that The Father asked.
Do you feel that we can be as perfect as Jesus was and is?
Answer: You are describing being led by the Spirit which is what we are commanded. This is the bar : "I believe that's our first commandment that He's left for us. To love Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and to love others 'more' than ourselves - even our enemies - and no greater love hath any man than this, that he lay down His life for them - as Jesus did."If Jesus is manifesting His life in us with His righteousness not our own - then yes.
Question : to say that we're sinless is to say that we are "like Him".
Answer : We can be like Him in nature but not in omnipotence. We are to be restored to the state of Adam which was the will of God for man.
| 2012/7/8 5:19|
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In answer to your question:
YES, I absolutely and unreservedly agree with your comment saying: "When you are walking in the Spirit, you are walking sinless".
Jesus told a sinner: "Go and sin NO MORE"!, (John 8:11).
Have we Christians been told anything less by Jesus for our own lives?
"GO AND SIN NO MORE!".
Therefore, I rest my case.
What power there is in the name of Jesus!
"For it is He who will save his people from their sins", (Matt 1:21).
The verse doesn't say FOR their sins ... it says FROM their sins. Nor does the verse mean that Jesus forgives us our sins and yet still permits us to continue in our sins. No, on the contrary! It clearly says that Jesus desires to save us FROM our sins ... from our propensity to sin ... from the power of sin.
To believe otherwise means that we must re-invent Jesus to be no more than a "habitual forgiver".
Yes, there is indeed forgiveness, (Psalm 86:5,15).
But God's plan for our lives certainly does not include that we should continue to sin and then pray for forgiveness.
"To be saved from our sins" is testimony to His wonderful plan of Salvation! That we stop doing sins!
In the Old Covenant their sins were provisionally covered by animal sacrifices. But it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins, (Heb 10:1-4).
But Jesus Christ was manifested, that He could take away sins, and in Him is no sin, (1John 3:5).
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sins has not seen him and knew him not", (1John 3:6).
The key is that we must recognize Jesus as Lord, (Col 2:6), and not merely as a propitiation for our sins.
Most Christians are content to believe that the best they can do is perhaps sin a little less after their rebirth. They prefer that God brings forgiveness but not deliverance; saved, but not to the uttermost; saved from our sins but without our needing to turn from our iniquities. Few have the awareness that God wants everything concerning sin to stop.
In every temptation we face, we can do two things:
1. yield to the flesh, let it be fertilized by the enemy and sin.
2. Say "No" to the thoughts and inspirations/influences of evil spirits and not sin, Instead, overcome. After all, the Lord desires that we submit to Him and resist the devil, (James 4:7) and this is accompanied with the mighty promise that the evil will flee from us!
"Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin",(1Pet 4:1).
"Who let the flesh suffer", means preventing any conscious infiltration from the realm of darkness to be fertilized by our desires. For such a person, there is a radical break with sin! He confesses: Christ lives in me and in His presence, I no longer allow any sin whatsoever.
It is said that many Jews believed in Jesus, but "His Word found no place for them", (John 8:30-37) In other translations it says, 'found no effect'; meaning: made no progress, achieved nothing.
This is why Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, you are truly my disciples and you shall know the truth (recognize), and the truth shall make you free", (John 8:31,32).
We should want our lives to be continuously be corrected by the Word. "If the Son makes you free, ye shall be free indeed", (John 8:36) This means being truly freed from sin.
I no longer am a slave of sin. Under grace, sin has no more dominion over me, (Rom 6:14).
What did Moses mean when he said in one breath, "Fear not; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not", (Ex 20:20)?
The fear of the Lord is a fear to sin and a hate of evil, (Prov 8:13).
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not", (1 John 2:1).
When we fail, there is no reason to despair because we can fall back on: "And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous", (1 John 1:1).
Through faith and obedience it is our daily challenge to overcome ... to do what Jesus told a sinner saying, "Go and sin NO MORE"!, (John 8:11).
Have we Christians been told anything less by Jesus for our own lives? "GO AND SIN NO MORE!".
In this day, it's not that anyone can say that they continually live in the Spirit moment-by-moment. But, we like Paul too, "press on towards the high calling".
"Not as though I had already attained, either were already PERFECT: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be PERFECT, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing", (Phil 3:12-16).
by pilgrim777 on 2012/7/8 0:16:04
Blayne, when you are walking in the Spirit you are walking sinless. Does anyone walk in the Spirit all the time? I never met anyone, but I have met some very, very Godly men who I would guess (because only God knows the hearts) walk in the Spirit a lot.
| 2012/7/8 4:39||Profile|
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Hi Brenda. Forgive me for asking, but have you read the verses I gave there?
You see, I haven't followed Fox or any other to come to what I feel Paul was saying nor John in those verses.
GOD is 100% Holy and 100% Divine Love. Paul did define love for us in 1Corth13 as you know - but are we there, every second of the day?
Jesus ate when The Father told Him He could eat. He slept when The Father told Him that He could sleep. Every single step He took was ordered of The Father. He did nothing of Himself. He was led by The Spirit every second of every day. He never forgot to do anything that The Father asked.
Do you feel that we can be as perfect as Jesus was and is?
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.
We do crave to be like the One that we Love and admire above all else - but to say that we're sinless is to say that we are "like Him".
I don't know what Fox taught - I'm sorry for that - but I do look up to Paul and John and Stephen and others in His Word - and Jesus is our Main Example of the selfless GOD-like life.
I'd love to hear your view of the verses I've left. I agree we are to "press on" as I posted - but will we be exactly like He was when He was here on earth?
This is Paul speaking "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."
And John - 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, *we shall be like him*; for we shall see him as he is.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities-[G769]; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
He was Love Incarnate and I believe that's our first commandment that He's left for us. To love Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and to love others 'more' than ourselves - even our enemies - and no greater love hath any man than this, that he lay down His life for them - as Jesus did.
The heart is deceptive and spiritual pride can blind us to where we are not "like Him" as He was on earth or is now.
Thank you for the conversation, Sister.
| 2012/7/8 4:28|
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"I believe that the definition of "sin" is "to miss the mark" and I believe the "mark" is the completed Image of Christ.
That would be where we are identical to how Jesus walked while He was here on earth. His only thoughts were The Word of GOD, communion with The Father and 'doing' only what The Father gave Him to do and speak and nothing more.
That would mean, no thoughts of self at all. I believe that's how He was. Thinking of others-only-always.
I believe that those that claim "sinless perfection" mean that they don't practice the obvious-in-Scripture sins anymore but by what I believe - that I've stated in the paragraph above - is lacking of what He was totally, while here on earth.
I love the verses that Paul wrote in Phil 3:7-21 - Romans 8:28 being for vs 29 - Heb 4:15 and the promise of 1John 3:2.
Of course there's more that 'encourage' me to press on to perfection, but those are just a few.
Answer : No I don`t mean just not practising obvious grosser sins of the flesh but I think that some do mean that. What I mean is as you say "His only thoughts were The Word of GOD, communion with The Father and 'doing' only what The Father gave Him to do and speak and nothing more.
That would mean, no thoughts of self at all. I believe that's how He was. Thinking of others-only-always" and we are commanded to walk as He walked.
If we were not to achieve perfection then we would not be commanded to press on for it. That would make a God a liar whereas God only commands of us what we can achieve.
| 2012/7/8 3:52|
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If I am a heretic then so was George Fox, and all of the early Quakers who taught sinless perfection, and he has been quoted in various places on this forum. Thank you for the support to express my views which has been through answering the questions I have been asked.
Question : So to say that if we sin AFTER we've received the knowledge of the truth that we are no different than Adam when he sinned, your saying that the blood of Jesus is unable to take away that sin and we are left doomed.
Answer : We need to repent and rededicate ourselves to Christ acknowledging the crucifixion of our sinful nature which scripture does not record Adam as doing but once we have partaken of the heavenly gift of entire sanctification, then it is impossible for man to be restored of himself.
| 2012/7/8 3:43|
| Re: sharing|
"How about we don't censor anyone and let them share? Does that sound ok?"
You may take your own advice...and you may share...but I'll do what God has called me to!
Share is not a word that the inspired writers saw fit to use in regard to Biblical Truth. It's not even found in Scripture other than in 1 Samuel 13:20. And there it ought to have been translated plowshare rather than share as the KJV mistranslated it.
| 2012/7/8 3:30||Profile|