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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

again, thanks pilgrim for the clarification there.

One huge problem I see with sinless perfectionism is that it denies the positional righteousness of Christ and focuses only on an experiential righteousness. But I believe Scripture teaches we must have both to be true believers.

If you only believe in a positional righteousness you justify sin in your life, seeing the grace of God as a license to sin. 1Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:19-21, and Jude 1:4 warn about that:"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

On the other hand, if you only believe and hope in an experiential righteousness you have no real hope or assurance of salvation. In this mindset, as soon as you see any one sin in your life, you consider yourself to be lost. And you may very well be lost because you are not trusting in Christ and His righteousness but in your own.

Thus the need for a biblically balanced view of justification by faith in Christ alone.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"(1Cor.1:30)


_________________
Oracio

 2012/7/8 16:38Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Brothertom

Re: Brothertom wrote /But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Romans ;written by Paul the Apostle AD 57-58..age 50-55?/

Romans 7 is a first person narrative of a past tense event

Christians should not have 2 opposing natures
Definition for bipolar: having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bipolar



 2012/7/8 16:29Profile









 Re: I have a body of death. He greets me good morning every day. He's creepy.


" But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Romans ;written by Paul the Apostle AD 57-58..age 50-55?

My question to some of you here, did Paul still sin? It is obvious that he did, and in wretched self discovery begged for the one thing that would free him; God's deliverance alone. Paul, in my opinion, may have been the most spiritual man on the Earth at this time. His education was by the mouth of God alone in Heaven; prohibited even to speak of some things, so holy.

As long as we live we will carry a sin nature. It is embedded within us, and it carries our name. We will only end our struggle with this satanic self on the moment of our death, and then, in the purity of Heavenly light, we will be set free, delivered.

Any one of you who drives a car; let me nudge you off of the road while fingering you. What will happen in your heart? or anyone who has offended your pride? or crossed you?

Our duty is to keep our hearts clean by allowing the Holy Spirit with us to kill us; to learn to die daily, to bear our cross as Jesus put it, DAILY. We must learn how to love, which must preclude honoring ourselves, which includes dying to our sin nature.

Equally, the Apostle John seemed to be right up there with Paul, writing Revelation prophecies, John, and the letters! He knew Jesus, and rested his head on his heart. An Apostle who cared for the mother of Jesus after the cross. When encountering the Creator Jesus Yahweh in full glory, it is written:

"I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.

His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

.."When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man."

He , John, was still a soul man, with a wicked nature, and who can stand before God with it, with out mercy? None, no, not one.

PS: I read or skimmed every post before commenting. Very nice!

 2012/7/8 16:20
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hi there Oracio,

Good to be working on this with you.

I believe 1 John 1:8 and 10 for the present and past.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And thank God for 1 Jn 1:9 for the future:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But this is not permission to sin.

As far as "positional" righteousness:

I think you are saying that just as God put righteousness to Abraham's account because of his faith, He does the same for us, who exercise faith in His Son. Faith is not righteousness. Through faith, righteousness is reckoned. Righteousness is a gift for faith to take.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham's response to a promise was FAITH and the result was righteousness. The entire source is in God.

Justification deals with the lawless and God Himself puts away all they have lawlessly committed and places them before Him as righteous. All this is on the basis of faith and this is the same faith that we are commanded to continue to walk in, in order to actually experience righteousness.

So, yes, I believe in positional or imputed righteousness, but one must go on into experiential righteousness. God wants us to experience freedom from sin. Man must go on to a life of righteousness. The gift of righteousness produces works of righteousness (sanctification) which will produce the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 and a life of holiness.

1Th_4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Righteous works must follow true faith, but we don't have faith in our works, we have faith in the work of Jesus Christ.

Php_3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Blessings,
Pilgrim

 2012/7/8 16:08Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: by savannah on 2012/7/7 21:18:09

RE: Savannah wrote on 2012/7/7 21:18:09
/You are not only teaching damnable heresy, but you ought not to be even at-tempting teaching men, as it so happens that God has created you a woman!/


Damnable heresy by whose standard?? the Synod of Dort??

Galatians ch 4
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

 2012/7/8 16:00Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3286
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio...And the question still begs, as a Christian, do you sin, pilgrim?



If Christians don't sin, why would we need repent and ask for forgiveness when we do sin? That would be an oxymoron.


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Bill

 2012/7/8 15:34Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 krautfrau

RE: Savannah wrote /krautfrau...aka Brenda,
Why are you adding sin upon sin?
You are not only teaching damnable heresy, but you ought not to be even at-tempting teaching men, as it so happens that God has created you a woman!/

krautfrau just be glad that we are not in Boston in the 1660s as was Mary Dyer and Anne Hutchinson when men with such theolgy had power.


 2012/7/8 15:33Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks for the explanation pilgrim. I agree with your post. The only thing we may disagree on is on the belief in a "positional" as well as a "practical" righteousness in the life every true believer. Do you believe in a "positional" righteousness applied to our account by faith? Or do you reject that belief?

And the question still begs, as a Christian, do you sin, pilgrim? If so, do you lose your salvation every single time you sin and therefore need to get saved again?


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Oracio

 2012/7/8 15:27Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
Again, complete agreement there brother. On the other hand there is a real danger of placing such a high standard and "burden" on true believers which impossible to meet this side of heaven. I am a little confused and don't understand why you wouldn't see that as a real danger brother. You seem to have no concern or problem with the doctrine of sinless perfectionism.



Hi Oracio,

Thanks for your comments. Glad to see we are more in sync than previously thought. Let me try to clear up an misconceptions about your perception of my views on the doctrine of "sinless perfection".

Let's examine another view of Righteousness, that we hear about today. Some take the view that one cannot be free from sin, just forgiven. In many places one sees the motto: "Christians aren't perfect just forgiven." The acceptance of imperfection and unrighteousness seems to be the norm for the church. What this motto really says to the world is, "I am a sinner just like you, but I'm forgiven and you are not." The emphasis is put on forgiveness instead of righteousness. Many have the attitude of a Christian minister who was in an adulterous relationship; when confronted he responded, "Every night before I go to sleep, I just ask the Lord to forgive me."

Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Many respond to these questions by talking about the sin nature in the believer, saying one can never be free from sin because sin will always be in him until he dies. They say the righteousness of Christ in no way changes the carnal nature, neither does the carnal nature affect the divine nature. Here man finds himself in a schizophrenic dualism of confusion and failure. The emphasis is upon "saved IN sin" rather than "saved FROM sin". One finds himself living in a two story house with no connecting stairway. On one floor there can be no sin, while on the other floor there is nothing but sin.

In seeking a Biblical position let us consider the following; first there IS actual cleansing from sin. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to CLEANSE US from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" (1 John 1:9). So, here is the step BEYOND FORGIVENESS; there IS CLEANSING from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin (v 7). When one is cleansed, he is SET FREE. The cleansing comes through a process of repentance, as "we walk in the light as He is in the light" (vs 7).

Second, there is release from the corrupt nature, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead IS FREED FROM SIN." Rom 6:6-7. Just as Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world, so sin must die in me. Are you committed to total freedom from sin? You ask, "Do I believe I can reach a point where I CANNOT sin?" No, but I believe one can reach a point where they ARE FREE NOT TO SIN.

Third, there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit that renews the human nature. "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an infusion of God's love, and invasion of God's Spirit, a penetration of truth and righteousness, and an emancipation from sin. Only the Holy Spirit can reach the depth of man's being and bring radical change. God promised this as part of the New Covenant. God promised those in the New Covenant:

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:25-27

Christ came to make men righteous. This is more than a legal reckoning of faith; rather, righteousness is to be experienced as a work of the Holy Spirit. This is radical and immediate. The Holy Spirit will come as a fire to purge from all defilement, as a knife to circumcise the heart, and as a scribe to write God's laws on your heart. "Christ in you, the hope of glory", is the Holy Spirit in you bringing forth His righteousness (Colossians 1:27).

Hope this helps to answer your question.

Pilgrim

 2012/7/8 15:14Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I don't think Blayne is saying that when someone is truly born-again these are their initial thoughts. Anyone who has been truly born-again has experienced an immediate hatred for sin and desire (place in them by the Law of the Spirit) to not sin against the Lord even once. The Spirit leads one to put to death the deeds of the flesh and when you experience this reality and subsequent closeness to God, it is wonderful.(pilgrim777)



Complete agreement with you there pilgrim. That is a sound, biblical view of true conversion. It is what biblical reformed theology teaches. I'm not saying I am reformed, but sometimes you seem to have issues with all of reformed theology. I try to take in the good and discard the bad, that goes for any theological framework.

Quote:
By and by many will experience in their Christian life the watering down of the Word by man's teachings until they are comfortable with sin in their lives. This is not the walk that God has called us to.(pilgrim777)



Again, complete agreement there brother. On the other hand there is a real danger of placing such a high standard and "burden" on true believers which impossible to meet this side of heaven. I am a little confused and don't understand why you wouldn't see that as a real danger brother. You seem to have no concern or problem with the doctrine of sinless perfectionism.

We are not lowering the standard of what it is to walk in the Spirit. We are simply defending the true gospel and grace of God.

Righteousness is both positional and practical in our lives. Because of the positional righteousness of Christ applied to us through faith, we are not condemned, even if and when we sin. Does that give us a license to sin? Certainly not. Like you pointed out, if we are born again we will hate sin with all of our being and seek to depart from all of it.

At the same time God works practical or experiential righteousness in and through us by His Spirit as we draw close to Him daily by faith. It is the process of sanctification as God continually conforms us to the image of Christ.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/7/8 14:03Profile





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