| Re: |
"Brother where do you get this disctinction in the New Testament of the western church and everybody else?"
Bearmaster, I simply meant that Christians in many other places of the world are already facing persecution. It's not news to them that persecution is coming. For them it's already there. In any case you'll notice I placed "western church" in quotation marks, not being comfortable with that phrase. I should rather have said, "churches in the western world."
"Brother you seem to have this mistaken notion we are wishing for persecution."
...Not sure how you picked that up.
You said, "So in God's eyes there is no western or eastern or northern or southern church. It is the body. Period."
But then you said, "But watchman are warning the American church of upcoming persecution."
Aren't you contradicting yourself? :) If there is no western church (and I agree that there isn't) how can there be an "American church"?
| 2012/6/30 12:32||Profile|
| Re: Allan ska ADisciple|
Brother I think you confused my response to Staff as thinking I was responding to you. Easy to do in a thread with multiple posters. Yes, I probably am contradicting myself in referring to the American church. But I was addressing the distinctions in something he said in one of his earlier post
Sorry for the confusion.
| 2012/6/30 12:56|
| Re: |
Good post Pilgrim. As for Laodicea, it went on , in the fourth century, to become a " see," for a Bishop meaning this city was the seat of power for a Bishop. It was very much a part of the history of the early Catholic Church. Seems like it did not heed the warnings given by John. ............bro Frank
| 2012/6/30 13:03|
| Re: |
Bearmaster said, "Brother I think you confused my response to Staff as thinking I was responding to you."
Looking back, I see that this is what I did. Your response came after mine, but you were responding to Staff's earlier post. I see now where you were coming from.
| 2012/6/30 14:21||Profile|
| Re: The great persecution that is soon to come upon the Church |
As I have been reading this thread, I was reminded of a discussion I had about a month ago with friends and family. We were talking about false prophets and false teachings! I was defending and contending for the faith!
My husband who is unsaved then turned around and said to me " I wonder if you will still profess Christ and say you love and follow Him when they come to kill you Will you still say Jesus is Lord".
I thought I'd share this in light of the topic about persecution. It is interesting that this statement about being killed for your faith came from someone who is unsaved! Yet we still have many believers who do not believe that persecution and martyrdom is coming. I believe that God through His Spirit is sending his message to His Church to prepare herself for the coming persecution. And He will do so faithfully in keeping with His Word that the Holy Spirit will tell us of things to come! It is up to each one to either hear what The Lord is laying on the hearts of many or reject it.
| 2012/6/30 14:46||Profile|
| Re: |
I am not disputing what the church is,the western church term has been introduced by others.
What watchmen?What proof have they that persecution is coming to the west?
When is it coming?Do you or other peoples view of how and when Jesus comes back have any influence on your view that persecution is coming(to the America)?
Have any of these watchmen made prophesys regarding a soon coming persecution?What would you consider soon?
Giving your life to Christ /picking up your doesn't mean martyrdom in most cases.Everybody has to die to self.
Yours respectfully Staff
| 2012/6/30 16:37||Profile|
| Re: |
Pilgrim said, "Brother will betray brother... Much of the religious system will be the persecutors of the children of God as has been the case down through the centuries."
This is an emphasis that has been overlooked in the recent threads on persecution coming to "the western church." The general emphasis has been on persecution coming against the church from outside it.
What about the persecution that comes from "the church" when Christ vindicates His own with His Spirit and Presence?
Good to see you again. I think any conference, simulcast, webinar, home fellowship, etc, etc, must not ignore that religionists, also known as those born after the flesh always persecute those who are born after the Spirit. Not talking about this would be a giant omission since we see this from Genesis to Revelation.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Cain wanted God to receive him on his terms. Cain would not come to God on God's terms. So, Cain slew Abel who was pleasing to God. And ever since Cain, you have had religionists persecuting those of the Spirit. The false church system persecuting God's people. The kingdom of the religious is on earth and as such, those of the Spirit always threaten their kingdom merely by existing and speaking the truth. They threaten their kingdom as David threatened Saul's Kingdom, not by attacking it, but by staying faithful to the Lord and speaking the truth.
God sent prophets to speak His words (the truth).
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Another way to get ready for the coming persecution is to heed the Lord's voice when He tells you to "come out of her, my people".
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Yes, we are not children of wrath and do not incur the wrath of God.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
However, we have been promised persecution and tribulation but only if we are living godly lives.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
God's people receive wrath from the children of the flesh.
As I mentioned before, one of the purposes of persecution is so the world will see the reality of Jesus Christ through His Church.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
| 2012/6/30 17:08||Profile|
| Re: Staff|
Brother I use the term watchman in a general sense. Not necessarily implying a specific prophesy or date to upcoming persecution. Men of the caliber if Art Katz, Denny Kenniston, David Wilkerson, and others whose sermons that are listed on this web site have indicated that persecution would come to America. The organizers of the upcoming SI conference in Atlanta will have men speaking on the topic of upcoming persecution. Men who feel in their spirits that persecution of believers will come to America. These are the watchman I refer to.
Staff why do you think the church in America will be spared from persecution? If believers for Jesus are being persecuted and martyred around the world, why must God spare us? This makes no sense. What makes the American church so special that God would spare us what saints in N. Korea or Nigeria go through? Brother I say gently such an attitude is pretty arrogant. That being the American church being spared from persecution. Is the American church going to sail to heaven on flowery beds of ease while the persecuted church in other parts of the world sailed through stormy seas?
Also Staff with the corruption that permeates the American churc, persecution may be God's refining fire that purifies her.
| 2012/6/30 17:32|
| Re: |
Adding to my previous post. Not only can we not ignore the children of the flesh that have persecuted the children of the Spirit as seen in the Scriptures, but we cannot ignore the religionists (children of the flesh) that persecuted the Church the last 2,000 years, too. This is in keeping with their true nature which is the nature of their father, the Devil.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
He was a murderer from the beginning...
These will continue to be the predominant persecutors till Jesus comes and that is why ignoring this would be a glaring omission in any discussion of "coming persecution".
The American religious system is arguably the most grossly religious system in history displacing Christ of His true Headship and wherever there is such a religious system there will be persecution. This is how you know there will be persecution in America.
| 2012/6/30 17:51||Profile|
| Re: |
I am not American and from the outside looking in I can see some terrible stuff going on in the American Church that needs rectifying.
The reason I ask those questions is to find out what people are basing their belief that persecution is coming soon.
Their is persecution going on around the world but there are places also that their is not.This is not enough to support a belief that persecution is coming soon.
And no the American Church will not sail to heaven on flowery beds and I strongly believe God will deal with the American Church.The American church is not anymore special than any other as far as I know.
My point is that the reasons behind the belief that Persecution is coming SOON are not based on the right things.
I think that people are basing their belief of a coming persecution on these things.
1.The bad state of if not all at least parts of the American Church
2.Some people want to call down fire and brimstone to solve the problem.Like Jonah wanted.
3.What you believe the end times scenario is.In this case almost all who comment believe we will go through the tribulation.Then it is natural to be looking for when its coming.
If you are saying that persecution is coming it should not be based on the above 3 things.
Men who feel in their spirits that persecution of believers will come to America
Because men feel in their spirits that persecution is coming to America is not good enough to proclaim " that Persecution is coming to America soon"
Our Standard for proclaiming such things has to be at its highest otherwise when it doesn't happen we are put to shame.
I want what you want for Jesus to deal with the problems in the US church and I believe he will,it obviously cant go on but to jump to the conclusion "persecution is coming soon"is not correct
| 2012/6/30 18:40||Profile|