I love you to Ann.

Thanks for your kindness.

It is most appreciated.

I have to say that sometimes the topic comes in thru the back door. A topic is started about something completely non-related and then "the topic" comes into play during the conversation. It's sometimes very hard to ignore because what you believe about "the topic" effects a lot of other beliefs and thoughts that we have about scripture.

It's kinda like trying to discuss what operates a car or a truck... without ever mentioning the engine or transmission.

Art, people either love predestination or they hate it. There is no middle ground. I'll just leave it at that. So dont be surprised that when it comes up people are gonna get hot over it.

Greg is simply saying he does not want his forum to be about that debate. It's his forum, and thats his choice. And to be quite honest they do allow some liberty in this at times. They dont lock down a thread at the mere mention of predestination or eternal security.

I do notice that more grace and liberty is given to those who are against it... but those who are against would probably say the same thing about those who are for it!

Thats how it goes.

I've been censored over and over again throughout the years. It can be upsetting. But know this beyond a shadow of a doubt: Greg and the other moderators are men of integrity... men of grace... men of God. They are very loving guys and for the most part they have always treated me with respect.

I'm almost to 8,000 posts since 2005. I'm retiring at 8,000.

Krispy

Hi Art--

Since i am the one who "flared up" over your topic and got it locked I might as well chime in.

First of all, I apologize.

Second, there is nothing personal.

Third, I have only been posting here a very short time and I have already been censored, but I understand why and I trust Greg's and the other moderator's judgment. It is frustrating because in my case the topic itself is not discouraged (as it is with Calvinism/Arminianis) but only my view on it is discouraged.

It is not possible to prevent posting on every controversial doctrine because quite frankly there are different views on many points of theology.

But there are certain topics like Calvinism/Arminianism where there might be 10,000 posts and at the end no one has changed their mind and no one has truly been edified.

I agree there is quite enough to be getting along with in the Bible that is not controversial.

Like Leonard Ravenhill said: "Most people are bothered by those passages, which they cannot understand; the Scriptures which troubles me the most is the Scripture I do understand.”

_________________
"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."
~~C.S. Lewis

"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization.

" It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers."

Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted without evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities."...wiki

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, ruled by a Spirit; the Holy Spirit Jahweh. "God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."

"The term "dogmatic theology" became more widely used following the Protestant Reformation and was used to designate the articles of faith that the Church had officially formulated."...wiki

" These creeds or dogmas that came out of the church councils were considered to be authoritative and binding on all Christians because the church officially affirmed them.

One of the purposes of dogmatic theology is so that a church body can formulate and communicate the doctrine that is considered essential to Christianity and which if denied would constitute heresy."...wiki

So, here we see that the individual faith was and is transferred to the organization, and somewhere along the line, heavy personalities developed their own theology, and proclaimed it as Divine, and then, anyone who defied this would be constituted a Heretic.

This is so completely ingrained within the religious psyche of it's followers, often it cannot be challenged, it has become AS the Spirit and the Word of God. It exists today, in many agendas.


Wiki states:
"Ever since Arminius and his followers revolted against Calvinism in the early 17th century, Protestant soteriology has been largely divided between Calvinism and Arminianism.
The extreme of Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism, which insists that signs of election must be sought before evangelization of the unregenerate takes place and that the eternally damned have no obligation to repent and believe,

... and on the extreme of Arminianism is Pelagianism, which rejects the doctrine of original sin on grounds of moral accountability; but the overwhelming majority of Protestant, evangelical pastors and theologians hold to one of these two systems or somewhere in between."wiki

And, we hate everything that opposes our brand for after all, "IS IT NOT HERESY?"

We must hate and reject everything that opposes our dogma, for after all, is it not Heresy? Thus, the rigid confines of our religious icons and TEACHERS BECOMES, AND MUST BECOME OURS! and many our most do not even understand why they feel the way they do....THREATENED....as if their entire faith is being attacked, and must be defended at all costs.

The Word of God in itself is no longer relevant, but only if "interpreted" properly. The intertwining of the thinking into this dogma now becomes ones faith; the tentacles of a systematic theology by a mind heavier than yours defines how you must think, or die trying in it's extremes........

"John Calvin said the same thing of Michael Servetus, a man that dared to disagree with his cherished doctrinal formulations. Seven years before Calvin actually saw to it that Servetus was put to death, he said: “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”

Calvin made good on his threat. Why? Because he had no answers to Michael Servetus’ correction of his false doctrines, and he could not bear to be proven wrong and to lose face. The temporal power he had taken to himself was predicated on being right. He was a very proud man; God resists the proud.
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/johncalvin.htm

Both are simply the ideas of brilliant leaders, as prone to error and sin as you or me. When we adapt them, in limitations as only the Word and solely the word, we then must hate everything we perceive that opposes it. The Pharisees hated Jesus as they weaved their own Right and agreed in the own Justice; "THE TRADITIONS".

CAL/ARM is no more than that; each contains slivers of truth, but without the Spirit endorsing the Word with Love and Power, the letter becomes death.


...Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”...
So, they murdered Him.

I'm not speaking for the moderators, but I have an idea that this is why there are limits in addressing this issue; the most dogmatic, and hateful war existing in Protestantism yet today.

Krispy wrote:

"your comments about those who hold to reformed teaching have sometimes been particularly harsh,insulting and condescending."

I thought this was the only thread that I have commented on Calv/Arm... but I will take your word for it. Sorry about that.

_________________
"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."
~~C.S. Lewis

Uh oh... If I had you confused with someone else please forgive me!! It's easy to do around here anymore...

Krispy