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AgesofWar
Member



Joined: 2003/5/24
Posts: 138
Chicago IL USA

 Re:

U know seeing is beliveing so check this site out and listen for yourselfs and watch these guys go at it.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

PS. Don't Let these false teacher make you lose heart like I did when I first found out about these guys years ago.

PPS Stay Close to the Lord there are good teachers out there. Not all are corrupt and remmeber that the Bible warns us about such things, Warns us alot.


_________________
Michael

 2005/2/18 1:09Profile









 Re:

one of the men mentioned in the URL you forwarded, was the guy who spoke at the house meeting I posted about.

but brother, I felt no animosity towards him, just pity

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4558&forum=35&8


I'm a Pentecostal, and I believe in the availability of the gifts of the Spirit for followers of Jesus.

 2005/2/18 1:17
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Sorry, just need to get this out...

Quote:
I don't think I will do that as I can find dirt on Billy Graham on the internet. So who is telling the truth, everyone has an axe to grind. I mean they even dispute that Jesus exists on the internet. I enjoyed that guy whose father knew Benny Hinn, he really had a first hand account of what is going on. All we have is the internet, very very realiable....NOT!



Hi ZekeO,

Many of us have had our share of first hand experiences and there would have to be a lot of backtracking through all these threads to recount them all.

The internet, like all things has both reliable and unreliable accounts. The more balanced and thorough will usually try and back up with some type of documentation. A site that is on the up and up I believe can be found here as it relates to this discussion:
[url=http://www.banner.org.uk/wof/Hinn.html]http://www.banner.org.uk/wof/Hinn.html[/url]

Mentioned earlier was the question to what scriptural problems that he teaches. One of the glaring that first arrested my attention even as I had been following Mr. Hinn was a tape of his I was listening to and he was discussing the will of God. At one point he stated that we should not ask what the will of the Lord is on specific matters. Now realizing I could have misunderstood where he was trying to go with it, the red flag still came up as I recalled the verses in James. He went on to teach that we should know what the Lords will is because He has already told us in His word. If it had stopped at the thought of for instance "that all men might be saved" perhaps, but as he went on the jarring part was that he said "we should [b]never[/b] pray that the Lords will be done". "It [b]is[/b] Gods will that you be healed, it is Gods will that you prosper..." and so on. It had gone on to presumption. That was the first seed of questioning in my mind, but as is to be expected when you are enamored with someone the tendency is to suppress these things and look askance at others who might be trying to bring these errors to light.

Need to confess a couple of things. Earlier I may have gone against my own convictions in being too harsh with my words and I ask for forgiveness there. And by no means excusing that will go even a bit further. Can recall a time a couple of years ago praying and had picked up somewhere along the line, perhaps from a message, about forgiveness and the idea of asking the Lord to bring to mind those who you had not forgiven. The first name to come to mind was Benny Hinn.

It was more than just his ministry and the people being misled. Could recall further back in my mindset at that time how I was rehashing some of the things I had heard and seen, personal experiences, the deceptions of the whole WOF that I had been caught up in and had gone over the edge of grieving into outright hatred toward these men personally. The wrong spirit and I had need of repentance.

One of the difficulties in exposing error is that there is still truth there. The devil was a master at this, think it is easy to forget that he knows scripture quite well, better than many a theologian. So to torque something out of context, misapply it, draw a different intention other than what was meant is the heart of error.

Another personal example. The 'Covenant Partners' conference we attended (which is geared to the idea that you are special and receive special blessings because of your great giving, it may not be overt but it is the underlining idea behind it)was conducted over three days and he was teaching on end times, Revelations and Daniel. Still have my notes from that time, might have to dig them up. But just in recalling, he did a pretty good job of breaking down Daniels vision and the representation of the nations and so forth. And yet in this same conference to pronounce in an agitated manner suddenly that "The Holy Spirit is Here!" and the confusion that resulted, having everyone line up quickly around the hotel conference room, facing the walls
so we could be herded past him and his people to 'receive the anointing' meaning the hand on forehead psychological manipulation of being 'slain in the spirit' is something I will never forget, it was chilling and took a lot of suppressing to even go along with it, to even leave my seat. It was all very animated and hasty. I know this is redundant but I was very concerned as I couldn't help but wonder of the parallels to Jim Jones and even had fears as to what further ends this all might lead.

Then the money stuff. "The Lord is telling me that there are 5 people who are to give $1,000 to this ministry tonight" , "And a couple of you $5,000" And we waited until those came forth. Watched a man in front of me write out a check, for what amount I don't know but he brought it forward. One young man who could not speak English was so taken up in this that he came forward and gave his watch, he was in tears. This prompted others to come forward and offer theirs to this man. The pressure was unbelievable as the exhortations to give were being pronounced, emotions being played on, very confusing and was feeling quite ill in my gut over all that was happening.

The problem with all of this is just that. It is confusing. Especially to newer believers. The whole thing obviously detracts from the Lord and attracts to the man. You are left with a sense of not wanting to listen to the questions in your mind because "He is a great man of God" "Look at the people being healed, saved etc..." So you suppress things and the longer you get caught up in it the more difficult it is to see and hear where others are pointing out error. You become hardened in your own suppression and everyone else is the heretic etc.

Had a conversation last year with a sister who is agonizing over this with her family who happen to be very close to Benny. One who very is good friends with him and just in talking with her have no reason to doubt what she is saying. As much as she trys to bring out the truth even in a loving way, she is rebuffed with the 'touch not the Lords anointed'. She confided in me because of my own past history. I couldn't offer anything more than to weep with her and pray for the situation.

The long term effects of this and similar teaching that raises such 'controversy' is not to bash needlessly, though because it can be so grievous think that is why some of us go to far even as that is still unacceptable. Indignation yes, certainly. When you are still living with the residue of this type of teaching with those you love a wall gets erected. A dividing wall, a defensive wall, an accusing wall. That you are only interested in tearing someone down.

Every time this comes up my first reaction is to run in the other direction. Neils recent posting of the sorry and sad situation with the 'drunk in the spirit'... all I can say is that had to truly been the Lord telling him "Not to say a word" if not for that restraint,.... I know what you mean brother if you are reading along here. These things always put me in a tail spin spiritually. That along with the snipping and bitting and misunderstanding....

It is clearing up it seems and am truly thankful for that for all that have been participating throughout this forum. Many things cross over between topics of discussion around here and probably the biggest of all that gets off track is in that one word;

Misunderstanding.

Of intent and motives for exposing error.
Of pride and one-up-man-ship
Of expression and lack in doing that well.

Surely we are in need of patience with one another.

An understanding of the Lords words that we all be one, in spirit and in truth.

A willingness to not be offended and defensive of our selves nor to compromise core truths.

To reach out to help those caught up in error is love, not hate, if that is the intent and yes, just as sadly it does go to the opposite extreme
unfortunately, defeating the purpose and making the argument void in effect. But there are times when the argument must be forceful, a jarring to the senses. Even Gods wrath is bore out of His great love, not that that is a role any of us ought to take upon ourselves. Surely we can point to it and proclaim it and warn of it.

By and large the Fear of the Lord has become an almost lost doctrine in many of these modern ideas and 'new' teachings. Prosperity, healing, self advancement and 'realization', 'our' purpose, 'our' pleasure. It seems upside down and inside out. Presumption and flippancy, a good time and 'blessings', it's all about us.

The whole landscape and character traits of what a Christian is have changed. Think that is why so many have left the modern day institutions in search of what they know deep down inside is missing. It would be just as absurd to make that a blanket statement for everyone and every church but just in the fact that significant numbers are leaving is telling. Don't want to go off on that whole thing here.

But personally what made this site such a glaring diamond out of the muck was that I found here where things had gotten off track. The preachers and messages, sermons found here have that ring of truth even as they are challenging. It is not the be all end all but the message is uncompromising and balanced by and large.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/2/18 8:54Profile









 Re: Sorry, just need to get this out...

Quote:
I'm a Pentecostal, and I believe in the availability of the gifts of the Spirit for followers of Jesus.



Neil... I dont wear labels... I'm just a disciple of Jesus Christ. You've probably discovered that I am not real crazy about the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement... but you will be surprised to learn that I too believe in the "availability of the gifts of the Spirit".

It's the wide spread, wholesale abuse of those gifts that I have an issue with. It's rampant today.

Krispy

 2005/2/18 9:36
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi Krispy,

Quote:
Neil... I dont wear labels... I'm just a disciple of Jesus Christ.



I don't wear labels either, but if the label does fit I don't mind what I'm called. I think we tend to go to extremes in either direction even in how we identify ourselves. Even the title of Christian was at one time a label. I'm a Pentecostal because that's the best way to describe my theological bent, a classical Pentecostal to be more precise. I'll even let someone call me a charismatic if they define what they mean by that term. ;-) I go to an Assembly of God church and am working on my credentials through them, so I guess I wouldn't mind being called an A/G Christian--lately though I've been disappointed with the direction the leaders of my denomination have been taking the A/G's But the label does fit me, so I don't mind.

I think sometimes we tend to demonize the wrong thing. I was talking to crsschk on the phone a few days ago and we came to the agreement that a denomination isn't bad until you put the "ism" on the end of it.

Although I am a Pentecostal Christian, like you I am upset at the abuses that go on among the Charismatic churches. Many of my friends who are ministers are equally upset.

But anyway, I'm not trying to disagree with you or defend labels. I'm just offering a different viewpoint from a different perspective. :-D

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/18 10:31Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Sorry, just need to get this out...

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
The problem with all of this is just that. It is confusing. Especially to newer believers.



Thanks Mike,
This really makes me grateful for the church that I have, I would say that we are charismatic, but bible charismatics. I have said this before, but this whole thread and others like it, have really highlight the fact that what you get saved into is far more important that what you get saved out of.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/2/18 10:39Profile









 Re:

ZekeO ... the town your from has quite a name!

My home town is called Horse Shoe... short and simple.

Krispy

 2005/2/18 12:44
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Spongebobs Place

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
ZekeO ... the town your from has quite a name!

It is a throw back to great [i]voortrekker[/i] leaders who were running away from the Brits. Surprised is lasted this long in the present political climate.

Quote:

My home town is called Horse Shoe... short and simple.

But odd. :-P


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/2/18 12:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is a throw back to great voortrekker leaders who were running away from the Brits. Surprised is lasted this long in the present political climate.



I'm a small town country boy from North Carolina... I dont have any idea what you're referring to.

Typical American, eh? If it didnt happen here, it's not worth knowing about. (Sadly thats true for most Americans. I'm actually up to speed with whats going on outside America... but I still dont know what you're referring to! LOL)

If you have a burning desire to inform me, send it privately so we dont get the thread off track. :-)

Krispy

 2005/2/18 13:02









 Re: I don't wear labels either.

I made that stipulation , "Pentecostal" on this forum in answer to the website that ages of war posted up, because that website highlighted guys like John Scotland, very confused men like John Scotland and was saying, "here's a Pentecostal". Saying that John Scotland is Pentecostal is like saying that ..........Michael Jackson is a child care provider.

I watched about 90% of those clips on that site, and many many clips grieved me, but something stood out and its been withe me all day long, and I wanna lift it up, I wanna lift up what was expressed via the leading of the Holy Spirit by a young lady at the Brownsville AoG

She was a19 year old girl and the Holy Spirit was making her shake and shimmy and I remember thinking "oh Lord no...here we go again, and then she started to weep, and cry out with a burden for the lost, and I changed my heart tune, I started praising God that He can lay burdens like this on the hearts of our young, and as I type I pray that God would start a wave thruout the land , annoint our young with a ministry of tears for a land that is lost, for a people that is lost, for a church that is lost and foundering without a rudder or direction and divided by arguments, and divided by the flesh and divided by the pride of man ..AWAY WITH IT ALL!!!!

I PRAY THAT GOD BURN THE PRIDE AND THE FLESH OUT OF THE CHURCH.

This lil girl had it right, in Joel, before we start dreaming dreams and seeing visions , we best start weeping between the porch and the altar and quit playing our games, and worshipping on money, and worshipping the flag and worshipping power, coz ITS GARBAGE AND GOD SEES THRU IT!!!

Either one is sanctified and set apart for service to Christ, or one llooks and smells like the world, AND THE WORLD STINKS!!!!

The tears of the saints, andthe prayers of the saints are what pleases the Lord sweet incense unto Him.

 2005/2/18 20:11





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