SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Swaggart "expositors" bible

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
And I have also not been smug and judgmental to brothers that discuss where these men may have taken the first wrong turn and what they might do to be restored.



Very good. Then you have steered them from the mind of the Pharisee.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 18:56Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, please do not type things until you know what your talking about. he is not that in debt. has not missed a payroll.is giving raises.is hiring.his assets are huge and he has money rolling in as he has widely espanded his tv/on line ministry world wide. jimp

 2012/6/7 18:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
24c: and follow me

comment: (if Christ is not followed by means of the cross, He cannot be followed at all).



Again we have Paul,

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Colossians 3:1)

Our key phrase here is 'risen with Christ'. By implication, the person who has had the experience of being baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit, is not only dead to Sin (the dynamic), but is now enabled to walk in the power of His resurrection. Otherwise he/she would simply be in some spiritual limbo, free from Sin, but not yet alive unto God. The cross dealt with old Adam.

The focus here remains on what Christ has done through His death and resurrection, and our seeking God to have what He has done made effectual in our lives by the Spirit. This brings to pass the true words of the Lord Jesus, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:15)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 19:05Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it

comment: (tries to live his life outside the cross; it can only be lived through the cross)



What makes the cross of Christ essential (and that is simply a way of identifying what Christ did on the cross, it has nothing to do with wooden beams, etc.) is that before Jesus died on the cross the New Covenant and all of its benefits were not in play. This is why a man like John and James can be wanting to call fire from heaven and then receive the Spirit and die loving folks. Paul even wished to be accursed from Christ if it would reconcile unbelieving Israel to God. This attitude is sure evidence that Sin moved out and Jesus moved in.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 19:12Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

comment: (lose his life to Christ, which means to give his life to Christ, which can only be done through the cross; he then finds "newness of life" (Romans 6:3-5).



What Jesus did on the cross put the New Covenant into force. It is NOT like the Old Covenant in many ways, but one major difference is the blood that sealed each respective covenant. The blood of an animal enjoined the people to the Old Covenant. The blood of Jesus Christ enjoins us to the New Covenant. We have this comment in Hebrews:

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)

What did the blood of Abel speak? It cried to the Lord from the ground. What did it cry? Obviously it cried for vengeance or in OT language, for an avenger of blood. God came a running. What about the blood of Jesus? What was His attitude and how was it different than Abel? Simple. Jesus was not tainted with Sin (the dynamic) His was the blood of God. When shed it speaks better things than that of Abel. It says what Jesus would say if He had been alive, Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. (Luke 23;34)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 19:18Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

I honestly don't know much about Swaggart's situation; outside the wide reporting of his failures awhile back.

But aside from that, what people don't commonly know is that EVERY church organization which has tax free exemption and which owns a piece of property and/or a building is structured as a CORPORATION. They are required by law to appoint shareholders and CEO's and Presidents. They even have a Board of Directors.

So, let's say that some Mega-Church is found in scandal. What many may not know is that the leader (pastor) of that church personally owns the majority of shares of that church/corporation.

If the leader of the mega-church writes a book or sells a CD, this is sold through a separate corporation which belongs to the holding group of the mega-church corporation. But the shares of this separate corporation selling the books and CD's is usually an entity owned by the leader.
When a mega-church must change pastors, it is essentially a buy-out of the pastor's shares. This is why you read that the pastor and the Board of Directors are negotiating the pastor's resignation. They are defining the value of the pastor's shares which the corporation buys back and distributes to the next pastor. Some of these pastor's severance packages are reported to be worth millions.

There was an incident recently where the mega-church owned helicopters and multi-million dollar homes for the Pastor and his children and whomever else. But in actual fact, the corporation owned these helicopters and homes. Yet, the pastor and his fortunate were the 'chosen few' few who owned the majority of the shares which controlled/owned these assets.

So, the pastor and the 'chosen few' are now apparently negotiating millions of dollars in severance pay for themselves. The mega-church corporation will survive with a new CEO appointment and new Board to continue milking the congregation.
People like Swaggart and the other mega-church leaders are in fact corporate CEO's and majority shareholders.
It doesn't matter if your mega-church is a genuine ministry or if they are a fraud. They are all structured as corporations. They all function with shares and shareholders.

This is why Swaggart and Crystal Cathedral and others always try to bring in their sons to replace them at retirement. Because the shares which Swaggart and Shuller own are assets that are passed on to family as part of their personal assets and estate at death. Otherwise, they must sell them to other shareholders in the corporation for far less money.
The congregation does not own a penny of the value of a mega church.

Did you also know that denominations are in fact legally structured as corporate Franchise holders? No joke.
They are umbrella holding companies which own 'franchises'. The franchise holders (Denomination Heads)hold the power to appoint/approve the franchisees ... the churches belonging to the denomination.
In effect, they own the ministerial papers of the franchise (other churches in the organization) and in essence control who is the pastor and whatever. If the pastor steps out of sync with the franchise holder, (denomination) they simply invalidate his ministerial papers which make him ineligible to continue preaching in the building owned by the denomination.

MacDonalds and Taco Bell have similar restraints and control on their franchises. For instance, if a franchisee fails to comply with some franchise regulation or standard, they lose the right to continue with the corporate sign/logo above their eatery.

As Occupy might say: It's truly owned by the 1% of the congregation.

 2012/6/7 19:44Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: Megachurches-Supersized (Big Business)

Megachurches-Supersized (Big Business)
By William Reed (Edited from original article)

Rock climbing walls, kids’ spaces that resemble small Disneylands, bookstores and state-of-the-art sound systems represent today’s church – supersized. Mega churches draw huge numbers of worshippers and receive millions in collection plates. Mega churches are successful corporate entities that seek to service all the spiritual and social needs of their communities.

Mega church’ pastors are major corporate CEOs shepherding large business bases. Mega churches are characterized by congregations of from 10,000 to 25,000 and spectacular buildings which house sanctuaries, day-care centers, bookstores, and health centers. Most resound with crowds and activities seven days a week, and own businesses, subdivisions, and separate community activity buildings.

Almost all mega churches have TV pastorates, feature high-tech video along with foot-tapping music. There are less than 50 nationwide, but Dallas-based Bishop T.D. Jakes, Houston’s Kirby Caldwell, Atlanta’s Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar and Charles E. Blake have grown their memberships by preaching material success and sales their books, festivals, and movies. Their congregations have expanded into businesses such as: schools, assisted living facilities and ex-offender re-entry programs.

The typical mega church is suburban, has a total budget of over $5 million and often more than 50 full-time staff. These churches tend to have a charismatic senior minister and an active array of social and outreach ministries. The average salary for a lead pastor in a mega church is $147,000. Salaries for lead pastors go as high as $400,000 to as low as $40,000. Executive pastors at churches that have a weekend attendance of 2,000 or more persons earn, on average, $99,000 a year. Generally, staffing costs average between 40 and 50 percent of many churches’ budget. A church with a budget of $1-1.99 million provides, on average, the senior pastor with a salary of $91,000. The average salary for a senior pastor at a church with a $10 million, or more, budget is $189,000. The median age for a mega churches’ senior pastor is 49.

In a survey conducted by the Leadership Network, churches with week end attendance of 2,000 or more provide their full-time staffers with medical insurance. Ninety-three percent of churches with week end attendances of 1,000, or more, offer their workers medical insurance. Forty percent offer medical coverage for employees’ dependents. Other benefits provided by a majority of mega churches include dental insurance, life insurance, long-term disability insurance, a retirement account and a technology/cell phone allowance. Four in five typically contribute to a retirement plan for staff.

There are 1,210 Protestant churches in the U.S. with a weekly attendance of 2,000 or more. A Leadership Network survey showed average mega church has a Sunday attendance of 3,585. But not all mega churches are mega. The survey found that only 16 percent of mega churches had 5,000 people in attendance on a given Sunday. On average, an ordained Protestant pastor serving a small congregation received a median salary and housing package of $31,234. There is a wide disparity in compensation between Protestant pastors serving small congregations and those serving medium and large congregations. In a survey, Protestant pastors serving a congregation of more than 1,000 members received a median salary and housing package of $81,923. Roman Catholic priests earned less than Protestant pastors, in part because they have no family to support. Depending on the size of the parish, the median salary for Catholic priests runs between $21,000 and $26,095. Jewish rabbis earn more than Roman Catholic and Protestant pastors combined.

The median church in the U.S. has 75 regular participants in worship on Sunday mornings. Many say “today’s churches are more concerned with raising money than saving souls.”

 2012/6/7 20:56Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

What many may not know is that the leader (pastor) of that church personally owns the majority of shares of that church/corporation.



I'm sorry, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but that simply is not true. Not in the least bit.

501c3 organizations don't have shares that can be bought or sold like that. That is what makes them not for profit. And while there are certain basic requirements that every incorporated organize must have, even at the not for profit level. They must have a president, and they must have a board of directors and/or members who preside over the decisions of the organization. The powers of each are governed by the bylaws of the organization, which are ratified by the members. There are no shares that can be bought or sold.

And when it comes to denominations and how churches relate to those larger governing bodies by law are also varied. Some have their own individuality as their own self governing organizations. Others do not.




_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/6/7 21:05Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

by Hezwelling:

"flee Babylon"

Many are fleeing and undoubtedly, these scandals are used by God to open people's eyes.

Amen!

 2012/6/7 21:14Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

In my opinion, you're not very well informed about these sort of things. Maybe I have something of an edge because I myself own an incorporated business and also am the Managing Director of solely owned Christian publishing business.

Read this Newspaper report. I know these perpetrators personally. After catching them attempting to manipulate the sheet counter on the Photo Copier which I had freely donated to their church, I removed the equipment and never returned.

http://www.thestar.com/article/187986

Another instance:
Check out how the CEO/Pastor of this mega-church corporation behaved: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/line-between-megachurch-and-eddie-longs-estate-blu/nHX6S/
Who was authorizing these expenditures and behind-the-scene accounting tricks? The Board of Directors of the corporation. And why would they do that? Because that's what they signed on to. They justify the mess and continue receiving their exorbitant salaries and benefits.

Yet another instance is the Crystal Cathedral:
"The Crystal Cathedral megachurch in California says it will submit a plan to bankruptcy court next week that would get it out of Chapter 11 bankruptcy and erase its $35 million debt.
Spokesman John Charles says the church could then repay vendors who are owed $7.5 million.
The plan described Thursday calls for the sale of the 40-acre church property in Garden Grove to a real estate investment group.
The group would develop some of the land but allow the church to lease back its core campus for at least 15 years, with the option of buying it back at a fixed price after four years.
Charles says church services and the weekly “Hour of Power” TV broadcast will continue uninterrupted.
He declined to provide the investor’s name or purchase price."

This is contrary to those who assumed that their donations over the years were paying for a building in and for THEMSELVES. When it came down to the crunch, the leaders had squandered the contributions with their obscene salaries and padded expense accounts, (not to mention the liabilities of their huge guaranteed pensions), and entered bankruptcy. The sold the property from under the member's feet!

What I'm saying is that Christians must return to what a real and genuine church is meant to be. Certainly not an entertainment centre! Or the holder of a financial empire!

 2012/6/7 21:24Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy