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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance.

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 Re:

I'll quote what Brothertom said a third time to be clear on what I mean.

Quote:
But, there was a revival within a revival so to speak, and both seeds grew up together. One was a tare seed, one the holy grain.



Though I haven't read every last post in this thread, I don't think it's being said that absolutely every last part of it is from the devil.

In it's infancy it may have very well been a legitimate move of God, but it was quickly compromised with ecumenism, experiential theology, and all sorts of un-Biblical things until it spiraled out of control to become what we know it as today (as seen in the video that brothagary posted).

But like Tom said, there was a holy seed as a part of it, which it sounds like you and your church, and David Wilkerson and guys like BrotherTom, and several people that I know are a part of.

The Charismatic movement as a whole though today? It's not bearing fruit fit for consumption.

We should not tolerate the woman Jezebel.

Remember, there were kings in the Bible who started out good, too. God's standard of success is those who persevere to the end. Not those that started well.

 2012/6/22 2:33









 Happiness, Health and Prosperity. The Earthly Blessing. The spirit behind the blessing.

"Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

I think the issue really is who is our God? and why do we serve Him? and , Is the Gospel a means of gain? The Charismatic Movement, in it's excess, without doubt , was the seedbed for the Prosperity Gospel, dovetailed into the "Word of Faith", name it and claim it heresy.

Does God bless? Certainly He does, but is His objective in the Christian life to bless? It is not. His objective in us all, is that we become conformed to His Image, that we mature into sons and daughters like Him.

The true gospel lived and preached always has this idea at the forefront, the base. Christ Crucified for salvation and The Crucifixion of our self lives to conform us to God, to gain Heaven.

" Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world."

The devil would minister a gospel all about our enhancement and right to be blessed with worldly power and riches. Just proclaim it as a god, and in your confession it shall come to pass.

It is then the golf-ball sized magic god that you hold in you pocket, and you just rub him like the genie in the bottle, to be happy, healthy and prosperous. This has always been the case, and this current manifestation in the Charismatic movement is just the current manifestation of the age old temptation to become a god. These gods get all the world has to offer, and live their lives to the fullest.

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

There are many, many videos out there that mirror these same preachers and the same hideous manifestations when these clouds of devils are released, as the "blessing". I see it as the release of anti-Christ spirits that promote another gospel, all about "me", that in the end, if followed and not repented of, will lead you to eternal fire, not God.




 2012/6/22 11:48









 Re: THE CHARISMATIC ECUMENICAL RENEWAL...different from the Revival and Charismatic g

" What I am addressing is this very thing; THE CHARISMATIC ECUMENICAL RENEWAL; not the Revival of that day that also reintroduced the gifts of Charis; tongues and prophecy chiefly.[ healing as natural, the 5 fold idea also].

The chief issue is accepting that one may receive these gifts, and function in them, [ tongues being the chief ], and yet be received in holy fellowship, while tolerating satanic and Jezebel induced teaching and doctrine."

This is the "why" that we have been defiled.

 2012/6/23 10:32









 Bringing forth fruit unto life? or Death?

"I don't necessarily think God sees men as we see them (with labels). There are really only two categories. The Lost and the Found. The Saved and Unsaved.

We know whatever is not of God is sin. That is probably the most simple and understandable definition of sin.

God sees men either abiding in Him or abiding in the Wicked One.

Men are either bringing forth fruit unto life or bringing forth fruit unto death.

Some of the hardest people to reach with the Gospel are the ones who believe they have the truth. "

Matt 23:37 ..."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Pilgrim 777.........................


Pointing out excess and error is not negative; it is redemptive, and should be welcomed in the balance of ministry. Jesus Himself did it incessantly. Why? Because we are in a WAR, and the dragon, whose desire it is to devour the church, does not sleep, and is exceedingly subtle. He does not desire to destroy the gospel as much as he desires the destruction of it's purity. Leaven, or mixture, will kill you.

....Paul cries out below:

"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [ subtle ones, with a part of the true Gospel and a bit of deception that would profit themselves.]

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.........Paul at Miletus [ Ephesus]

We should too as we are confronted by error, for the sake of the body.

 2012/7/6 18:48









 All preaching, warning and exhortation by Jesus and His Apostles did this.

Discernment; and it's importance.


"Pointing out excess and error is not negative; it is redemptive, and should be welcomed in the balance of ministry. Jesus Himself did it incessantly. Why? Because we are in a WAR, and the dragon, whose desire it is to devour the church, does not sleep, and is exceedingly subtle.

He does not desire to destroy the gospel as much as he desires the destruction of it's purity. Leaven, or mixture, will kill you, and inevitably DESTROY the Church itself if not exposed by light and resisted with power.

 2012/8/7 7:25









 An Old friend reemerges in England: Todd Bentley. The Bamster is back.

Wham Bam a lah cooliah! Bam! "Emma, come along now, we got some gold to collect!" He says to his gal-pal angel as he leads her by the hand to preach on the offering..

You got it. He's ba'a'a'a'a'a'a'ck. The Toddster has entered the room! The charismatic prophet of prophets, trying to make a living the besat way he knows; lie about healing and resurrections from the dead, and super-spiritual stories he fantasized up to draw in the naive, in ENGLAND now. Oh boy. Here we go again.


"UK Official Seeks to Ban Appearance of Face-Kicking ‘Faith Healer’"..headline.

Officials in the United Kingdom are requesting that a purported faith healer who is known for engaging in violent acts on stage, such as kicking the sick in the face, be prohibited from appearing in the country this month.

British Labor MP Malcom Wicks reportedly contacted Home Secretary Theresa May to request that she help to stop Todd Bentley of Lakeland, Florida from coming to the UK.

Apparently, as part of his so-called evangelism, [he] has been known to physically assault those who come to him for help,” he wrote. “I urge you to do all in your power to ban this man."
http://christiannews.net/uk-official-seeks-to-ban-appearance-of-face-kicking-faith-healer/

He has run out of traction though, and now he is fighting God himself. May he fail again, and be exposed as to the lying serpent he really is.

 2012/8/28 20:30
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance.

I did not check this thread out until now because I always felt like I would be the odd one on this issue.

Based on other posts here, I would like to share an observation of what has happened among many Mennonites.

When the charismatic movement 'hit' many fell for it, "hook, line and sinker". Others viewed it with caution but embraced parts of it. Even we were taken in with their literature, mainly the magazine "New Wine". Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, ?Simpson, and others (among them Don Bashan), were its primary promoters/writers. They printed articles by others who toed their theological line. There was a lot of good in it but we never did go to any of their meetings. Somehow it never worked out for us to do so.

Some people we knew embraced it wholehardedly. Where are they today? They have all apostatized, embrace a relative theology/doctrine, are ignorant of Bible doctrine. Experience trumps Biblical directives. Worldliness has overwhelmed their churches where there is no difference between them and the other liberal churches in their neighborhoods. The only difference been them is the Mennonites are strong on helping the poor, assisting the victims of natural disasters.

We do believe the gifts of the spirit are still operational today but they are just that: gifts. They are not entitlements, just gifts. They are given to the church to edify. What masquerades as gifts of the Holy Spirit are little more then deceiving spirits. These spirits look so attractive, so appealing. To speak out against these trends will invite the scorn of their supporters.

This apostasy follows on the heels of great evangelists like Andrew Jantzi, George R. Brunk,ll and others. Not only this, we have been educated by great Bible teachers. We know the Scriptures - the stories, the doctrines. If there is one lack, that is the teaching of the working of the Holy Spirit in the life of the individual - what does it look like? How can one discern what spirit is working/operating in one's life? In other words, the discernment of spirits is missing or has been silenced by persistent debates with the Holy Spirit.

Today many of us feel so alone, we are so grieved with what is happening to our families, the people we grew up with...

So sad.

Tom, you are right. What I shared is what has happened in 'our world'.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/8/28 21:15Profile









 Re: .....

GinnyRose. Your posts always impact me with a sense of reality; down to this real world ,"Tom, you are right. What I shared is what has happened in 'our world'." It happened in my world too, GR, and it came within an inch of taking my mortal soul; with it.

Ern Baxter, Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Don Bashan, and Charles Simpson .....

It began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.

They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another. Ern Baxter* was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the "Fort Lauderdale Five."[

"A less known sixth associate was John Poole. Together these individuals formed the organization that would be 'the center of one of the most violent controversies (i.e., the Discipleship/Shepherding controversy) in Protestant charismatic history,' Christian Growth Ministries (CGM), headquartered in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."[1][2]

Their relationships, and the doctrines which they began to emphasize in support and definition of these relationships, gained wide approval, as they addressed a strongly felt three-fold need of many in the burgeoning charismatic movement: greater accountability, stronger character development, and deeper relationships.[citation needed] Other Charismatic ministers and some Pentecostal began to submit to the authority of the Ft. Lauderdale Five.[citation needed] The vertical, descending, "chain-of-command" the five ministers were successful in establishing —

"was a pyramid-shaped, multi-tiered organizational structure, which had at the top echelon of the pyramid (it just so happened) none other than the Fab Five themselves, who claimed (conveniently) to be in "submission" to each other, which arrangement, they purported, acted as a fail-safe "checks and balance" system to totally preclude them from falling prey to the corruptive properties of absolute power to which, historically, so many others (albeit, less spiritual than they, of course) succumbed."[3]

 2012/8/28 22:05









 Re: .....

GinnyRose. Your posts always impact me with a sense of reality; down to this real world ,"Tom, you are right. What I shared is what has happened in 'our world'." It happened in my world too, GR, and it came within an inch of taking my mortal soul; with it.

Ern Baxter, Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Don Bashan, and Charles Simpson .....

It began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.

They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another. Ern Baxter* was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the "Fort Lauderdale Five."[* Baxter was famous for managing the prophet William Branham for many years, and was in the center of Pentecostal ministry for many years. I have heard in preach twice.]

"A less known sixth associate was John Poole. Together these individuals formed the organization that would be 'the center of one of the most violent controversies (i.e., the Discipleship/Shepherding controversy) in Protestant charismatic history,' Christian Growth Ministries (CGM), headquartered in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."

Their relationships, and the doctrines which they began to emphasize in support and definition of these relationships, gained wide approval, as they addressed a strongly felt three-fold need of many in the burgeoning charismatic movement: greater accountability, stronger character development, and deeper relationships.

Other Charismatic ministers and some Pentecostal began to submit to the authority of the Ft. Lauderdale Five. The vertical, descending, "chain-of-command" the five ministers were successful in establishing .....

"was a pyramid-shaped, multi-tiered organizational structure, which had at the top echelon of the pyramid (it just so happened) none other than the Fab Five themselves, who claimed (conveniently) to be in "submission" to each other, which arrangement, they purported, acted as a fail-safe "checks and balance" system to totally preclude them from falling prey to the corruptive properties of absolute power to which, historically, so many others (albeit, less spiritual than they, of course) succumbed." wiki

The nightmare began, in which I too had a personal handle on. It very nearly cost me my soul, and it did many others. I was deeply involved in the shepherding movement, in the early to mid 70s and it was filled with pride, and submission to men as unto the Lord, but of course this was never stated.

In it you transferred your faith, tithe, and control of your life to a man, in a pyramidal system, that in effect, stole your faith away from yourself. I did so, though I did not know the immediate effects til much later. When I broke away from this system, and the church that had been high-jacked, taken over by them, It seemed that I never had faith, and there was literally NO CONVICTION of sin in my life.

I could do the most vile things, and it was just like the days of my sinful youth; no conviction and everything goes, and I was not the least bit worried about it. My crown had been stolen, and I did not know it.

My heart had been hardened by a sin of replacing Jesus as my head, and transferring it to a man.

more later....


 2012/8/28 22:05
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

dear brother tom, i too was recruited out of liberty bible col. in pensacola fl. by charles simpson and was taken to jackson miss.i was given a job at mcdonalds to raise my three babies and told where to live. my leader was talking to my wife and i and my youngest baby started to cry. he went into the room and paddled my baby. i promised the Lord i would give it a year and one day after a year i was heading for new orleans. i held umbrage in my heart for charles and our paths crossed in orlando fl. i told him i need to ask for forgiveness for my sorry attitude toward him . he asked my forgiveness andwe hugged and wept a bit together. he told me he had repented many months before i forgave him.john poole was a great guy with wife problems from philly. he ran off with another women and i have not heard from him.jimp

 2012/8/29 1:56Profile





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