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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ArtB wrote


Re: ArtB wrote
"So what happened to Luther as he got older so that he became a madman, viciously hating the Jews and calling for their death. Luther became all around bitter, hateful, and violent.
The answer is medical!"

Does the Bible associate psychological issues with medical or with spiritual??

 2012/5/31 12:28Profile









 Re:

Again I would commend Denny Kenniston's series on the early history of the anabaptist. Even if one does not agree with his conclusions. The series does provide another aspect to reformation history that one is not used to hearing.

For one thing it should be noted that Felix Manz, Michael Sattler, and others used to share fellowship with Zwingly and the other reformers. Zwingly and those we call the anabaptist were people who left the RCC seeking the truth of Christ. The Bible was being printed in the German vernacular of the people at the time. Guttenberg's printing press enabled the Bible to go forth and the common people were reading it. So from about 1525-1527 or so the reformers and anabaptist were of one group studying the scriptures together and comparing notes. One might say for the first three years they were of one mind. Luther and Zwingly even embraced some of the truth Manz and Settler held too.

The division came over how the reformation would be sustained. The reformers such as Luther and Zwingly believed one needed the power of the state to bring about a reformation in the church. To enforce it by the sword. Those who called themselves the anabaptist believed the church was separate from the state. The church was connected to one head only. That head is Jesus. They ababaptist maintained that member of this church were to submit to believers baptism and live holy lives. And that began the separation between the reformers and the anabaptist.

Granted the above is a simplistic synopsis. Leonard Verduin has documented the delopement of the church state during the reformation in his book Anatomy of a Hybrid. I do not know if this book is still in print. But it is an excellent read.

I think there is a great lesson here for us. We see American evangelicalism getting caught up in the right wing politics of our day. There are some who will wrap the Bible and the cross with the American flag. While I do not envision anything like Calvin's Geneva or Cromwell's England coming to America. I do foresee a civil religion, a pseudo church arising. This church having patriotism and God mixed together to command allegiance to the state. Such a church does exist in China. It is called the Three Self Patriotic Movement Church. Or TSPM for short. In America we call it the 501c3 church.

If anything the anabaptist teach us that the church is a persecuted pilgrim church. That reality is being lived out by the house churches in China and Iran. That reality will soon be lived out by the church in America. Call it the remnant faith bride church.

Bearmaster.

 2012/5/31 12:39
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
It's helped me to understand and hear things about the reformation which I hadn't known. Thanks for starting it.


I say thanks too. It gets us thinking. Here’s my own thoughts:


I wonder why there is a need to take sides – to form a one-sided opinion – to either agree or disagree with people – to accept or reject. Is it necessary? It may be that we have more in common with the ones we disagree with than the ones we see ourselves agreeing with.

Why take sides at all? Why not allow all of them – along with the good and the bad, to teach us something about history/political thought, culture etc, and even to help us understand ourselves better.

One surprising discovery I made about the reformations is the propensity they had to make the preservation of the church as an institution their priority. Keeping (perceived) evil out was often more important than that each person grow in the gifts of grace. In that sense, nothing has changed even today.


Quote:
The reformers were wrong on the doctrine of baptism because they stil had alot of tradition in their head.



This is a good point. No one begins in a vacuum from a blank mind. The reformers had to deal with the Mother Church, and in view of the scope of the issues they wrestled with, we can surely appreciate the limitations. Yes, many traditions remained lodged in their heads – to a fault.


Of course it’s always easier to see another person’s faulty presumptions than our own – especially if they are from another era. And really, why would we ourselves be any different? Surely we have a number of well-embedded traditions and doctrines that we ardently cling to – even if biblical support is precariously sparse.

One more thought: In the bigger picture, could it not be that the reformers, in spite of their failings, paved the way for later revivals?


Diane




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Diane

 2012/5/31 13:09Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: roadsign

RE: roadsign wrote
"One more thought: In the bigger picture, could it not be that the reformers, in spite of their failings, paved the way for later revivals? "

I think the answer is obvious. and one to be commended.

 2012/5/31 13:20Profile
Josef83
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Joined: 2010/8/21
Posts: 111
Sweden

 Re:

Proudpapa>

Well Finney is different than Wesley. Ravenhill, Tozer etc..
If Finney taught that Jesus did not satisfy the wrath of God in the cross then I can understand why the reformers dont like him.

http://youtu.be/GH29Tr7bAN0

Its Finney he is quoting. So Then I understand all the critiques coming from the reformers on that view on the atonement.


 2012/5/31 13:54Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

proudpapa on 2012/5/31 9:28:16


"Re: ArtB wrote
"So what happened to Luther as he got older so that he became a madman, viciously hating the Jews and calling for their death. Luther became all around bitter, hateful, and violent.
The answer is medical!"

Does the Bible associate psychological issues with medical or with spiritual??"

Tourettes Syndrome is clearly a medical caused disease. In medeival times such a person would probably burned alive for being demon possessed.

I would not just say that Luther became bitter, hateful, and violent. I would add that Luther's mind became disoriented due to an extreme case of tinnitis, which could not be treated in the 16th Century, and his thinking became irrational and paranoid. And this lead him to write awful and hateful things emanating from his no longer rationale mind. He had become very mentally sick. As I stated before, he hired a bodyguard, not to protect himself, but to protect others in his presence from his violent outbreaks. Luther was well aware that he was mentally sick. Yet he kept writing very awful things because his disoriented mind deceived him. The longer Luther had Menieres Disease, the more vicous his writing became.

I'm not an MD, I would prefer a Medical Doctor whi is a Christian to answer your question,


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/5/31 13:59Profile
rnieman
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Proud Papa you wrote:

"RE:Josef83 wrote
"I mean Romans chapter 9 is so clear and 9:6 is so clear that it aint talking abous nations!"

I agree with you that it is not talking about nations, I believe that is a weak argument. But it also is not the central theme of Romans nor is it the central theme of the Bible as what Hypertheolgy teaches. Read Romans Ch 1-8 to give the context for ch 9 or even within chapter 9 Paul gives the (reason) that Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. v 32 "Wherefore? (Because!!!) they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."


I think corporate election is pretty clear here.For example In verse 21 of chapter 9 we read :

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

This verse is quoting from Jeremiah 18 which reads

1This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2“Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6“O house of Israel(notice this is plural), can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.(plural again) 7If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom(plural again) is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8and if that nation (plural again) I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom(plural yet again) is to be built up and planted, 10and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Notice the use of the words “nation” or “kingdom” and the phrase “O house of Israel”

They’re all plural because they’re not talking about a individual’s salvation, but rather the corporate election of Israel the nation.

Now in Romans 9 we see this quoted, so my question to you is: Is God changing the meaning of Jeremiah 18 in quoting it in Romans 9 to mean individual election?

Tying this together with verse 6 Paul states that not all of ethnic Israel is spiritual Israel. This same concept applies to the church right now, not everyone is saved that goes to bible believing churches. Wouldn’t you agree?

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you,

Russ

 2012/5/31 14:00Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

KrispyKrittr on 2012/5/30 7:29:12, wrote:

"The Reformers also took the Bible away from the clergy and put it in the hands of the people to read and interpret for themselves. As a result a mass exodus (no pun intended!) from the Catholic Church began."

Krispy, Nice post Overall!

And you must give a lot of credit to the invention of the printing press. People began to actually read the Bible for themselves, and their Catholic indoctrination did not at all match what the Bible revealed about true salvation.

It is no accident that the invention of the printing press shortly preceded the reformation. Prior to the invention printing press, some reformers were making copies of the Bible by hand. Though that was admirable, the very few hand written copies of the Bible severely limited who could get their hands on the Bible and read and study the Bible.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/5/31 14:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I would not just say that Luther became bitter, hateful, and violent. I would add that Luther's mind became disoriented due to an extreme case of tinnitis, which could not be treated in the 16th Century, and his thinking became irrational and paranoid. And this lead him to write awful and hateful things emanating from his no longer rationale mind. He had become very mentally sick. As I stated before, he hired a bodyguard, not to protect himself, but to protect others in his presence from his violent outbreaks. Luther was well aware that he was mentally sick. Yet he kept writing very awful things because his disoriented mind deceived him. The longer Luther had Menieres Disease, the more vicous his writing became.



Again, I strongly recommend that research be done from Medical Journals or books like Merck's manual, etc, that would put many minds at ease, that these conditions do not cause the phenomena that you are describing in Luther's extreme psychological behavior.

"Very mentally sick" you said - Yes, he did become "psychotic" but not from "tinnitis nor Meniere's disease."

Tinnitis has become so common of an infirmity and no one has ever become this extremely "psychotic" [psychological "disorders" are not classified as "psychosis" in Psychiatry] as Luther was "psychotic" and no one that has tinnitis or gets it should ever be made to fear total insanity from it.
Do the research so that this non-medical faulty diagnosis of what caused Luther's mental Extremes won't be perpetuated - for other's sake.


P.S. Neither disease changes a true Christian's "Doctrine" - neither.
Yikes!

 2012/5/31 14:19
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: rnieman

Re: rnieman. Thank you, I have never heard Romans 9 put that clear with the context of corporate election.

 2012/5/31 14:45Profile





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