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SermonIndex.net Moderator - Paul West

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

George Whitefield (1714-1770)

ginnyrose

I do not see it as sin that a child will express distress if its needs are not met and especially needs for affection and attention. It is a God given means for survival. As a mother for 5 children one not mine and training as a nursery nurse, I saw fussy babies to the ones who were either ill or neglected. It is western ideas about child rearing which are wrong. A breast fed baby carried about all the time hardly murmers. Leaving them in cots is not natural.

Paul West

Children like that have good reason for their anger - abuse and neglect. Go to any traditional society and see how peaceful and content the children are.

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SermonIndex.net Moderator - Paul West

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

George Whitefield (1714-1770)

The intent of my post was to demonstrate that very young children do not have to be taught to rebel. It is in their nature. True, they will cry if their needs are not met - this is the only way of communication with others.

If I want my child to sit still on my lap at church but he does not want to, but would rather crawl and play, will he like this restriction placed upon him? Mine didn't. (We had no nursery to park our little ones, either.) Here was a clash of wills and this child had to be taught you must submitt to mom or dad and be quiet!

Does this make sense?

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“If you wish to know God, you must know His Word. If you wish to perceive His power, you must see how He works by His Word. If you wish to know His purpose before it comes to pass, you can only discover it by His Word.” (Charles Spurgeon)

No it doesn`t make sense ginnyrose. It is torture to make a young child sit quiet during a church service and is a place of great abuse of children.When a young child is awake they need to be free to exercise their bodies.

Paul West I am discussing young children. As they age they become sinners but the degree of their sinfulness will depend on how their parents have respected their needs when they were very young and whether they resent their parents. I generally see children of unbelievers to be less aggressive.

Quote: Romans 7 v 9 For (I)({Paul}) was (alive) (without) (the law once)({when Paul was an infant with no Law}): but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was not alive spiritually when he was born as Paul clearly states that we were all spiritually dead in our sin, Christ says that we must be born again why because our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is, we are born void of God. No person is ever born with God Our spirit is dead in sin when we are born and self is the Lord of your life...

Eph 2:1-3 Amplified And you [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins.. In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]. Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God’s] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.

We are born with the tendency to follow the Prince of the Power of the Air, which constantly works in… I hope your taking note that is “works in” the sons of disobedience. We are born children of God wrath and are heirs of his indignation…..

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

1.For I was alive without the law once

The state to which he refers here must be that to which he himself writes about elsewhere, when he deemed himself to be righteous, depending on his own works, and esteeming himself to be blameless Acts 23:1; Acts 26:4-5.

2.When the commandment came

When it was applied to his heart and conscience this is the only intelligible sense of the expression when it was urged with power on his conscience, to control, restrain, and threaten him.

3. Sin revived

It lift up its monstrous head, and appeared in its ugly shape, exceeding sinful indeed; it grew strong and exerted itself; its strugglings and opposition, its rebellion and corruption were seen and felt, which show that it was not dead before, only seemed to be so.

4.and I died

He saw he was deserving of eternal death, and all his hopes of eternal life by his obedience to the law of works died at once; he now experimentally learnt that doctrine he so much insisted afterwards in his ministry, and to the last maintained, that there can be no justification of a sinner by the deeds of the law.

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Colin Murray

How are you.
RE:murrcolr wrote in reference to ROM 7:9 "Paul was not alive spiritually when he was born as Paul clearly states that we were all spiritually dead in our sin"

just as the Bible never uses the phrase (sinful nature) neither does it use the phrase (spiritually dead) so I would say it is not as clear as you might think. all men are born with a body soul and spirit but I relize what you mean by applying the word spirtualy dead to imply the seperation from the Spirit of God.

RE: murrcolr wrote "Christ says that we must be born again"

Agreed and he says else where in referrence to this Born again experience: Math 18 v 2
2 And Jesus called a (little child) unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, (Except ye be converted)({that is to say born again}), (and) (become as little children)({innocent,pure,clean heart, clear consience not under the Law, being led and moved by another}),, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me

RE: Murrcolr than wrote "why because our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is we are born void of God."

agreed We are Born seperated from God but that in its self does not make us guilty.

RE: Murrcolr wrote:"and self is the Lord of your life"

That is very true and something that needs to be understood by all. But that in its self does not creat guilt It is when We know to do good but we choose evil, as What all grown people have done that we are imputed with guilt. read Romans ch 2

You where right we do use different Bibles.
Eph.ch 2

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We have to compare scripture with scripture
Look at same book Eph. ch 5
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(infants are not guilty of this)
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(infants are not guilty of this)
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(infants are not guilty of this)

6 Let (no man)({not even Augustine)} (deceive you) with (vain words): for (because)({he is giving the reason for Gods Wrath}) of these things cometh the (wrath of God) upon the (children)(not refering to infants but grown people whom knowingly disobey}) of (disobedience.)

disobedience (lack of obedience) or (refusal) to comply; disregard or transgression.

Romans ch 1 v 18 For the (wrath) of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who (hold)({that means to have to hold it does not mean to suppress}) the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Read Romans ch 1-3 Paul gives very clear detail why men come under his wrath

RE: murrcolr wrote 1.{"For I was alive without the law once"
"The state to which he refers here must be that to which he himself writes about elsewhere, when he deemed himself to be righteous, depending on his own works, and esteeming himself to be blameless Acts 23:1; Acts 26:4-5."}

No, he is referring to Himself as an infant alive from guilt alive without condemnation.
Romans 7 is another disscussion another forum another day, It is not about the normal Christain Life as What Dual nature theolgy teaches it is a lost man under the law who is a slave to sin.

RE: murrcolor wrote ("2.When the commandment came
When it was applied to his heart and conscience this is the only intelligible sense of the expression when it was urged with power on his conscience, to control, restrain, and threaten him.")

agreed this is to a person of understanding as the intelligable sense becomes aware as in a state (or age) of accountability, not an infant

RE: murrcolr wrote ("3. Sin revived
It lift up its monstrous head, and appeared in its ugly shape, exceeding sinful indeed; it grew strong and exerted itself; its strugglings and opposition, its rebellion and corruption were seen and felt, which show that it was not dead before, only seemed to be so.")

No, It revived from his parents generation to his own He has now personaly followed Adam in having the Law and breaking it he is now dead to inocence he is personaly guilty and needs a savior.
Romans 18 is now his personal reality: "18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation"
Just as when He Believes in Christ the last half of 18 becomes his personal reality. "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

RE murrcolr than wrote ("4.and I died
He saw he was deserving of eternal death, and all his hopes of eternal life by his obedience to the law of works died at once; he now experimentally learnt that doctrine he so much insisted afterwards in his ministry, and to the last maintained, that there can be no justification of a sinner by the deeds of the law.")

Agreed!



blessings

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"I grant freely that the theory of "plenary verbal inspiration," involves some difficulties. I do not pretend to answer all the objections brought against it, or to defend all that has been written by its supporters. I am content to remember that all inspiration is a miraculous operation of the Holy Ghost, and, like every operation of the Holy Ghost, must needs be mysterious." - John Charles Ryle

This is an interesting verse I forgot to mention as far as children
Matthew ch 18
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven

Children have their own angels pleading with God in there case

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"I grant freely that the theory of "plenary verbal inspiration," involves some difficulties. I do not pretend to answer all the objections brought against it, or to defend all that has been written by its supporters. I am content to remember that all inspiration is a miraculous operation of the Holy Ghost, and, like every operation of the Holy Ghost, must needs be mysterious." - John Charles Ryle

Re: murrcolr wrote "We are born with the tendency to follow the Prince of the Power of the Air, which constantly works in… I hope your taking note that is “works in” the sons of disobedience. We are born children of God wrath and are heirs of his indignation….."

Do you even relize what your theology is saying??

You tell that mother of a two week old innocent pure infant that dies, That that Baby is a child of Gods Wrath and is an heir of his indignation. You tell them that that Baby is wicked and deserving of Hell.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the (flesh)(sarx) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh??

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"I grant freely that the theory of "plenary verbal inspiration," involves some difficulties. I do not pretend to answer all the objections brought against it, or to defend all that has been written by its supporters. I am content to remember that all inspiration is a miraculous operation of the Holy Ghost, and, like every operation of the Holy Ghost, must needs be mysterious." - John Charles Ryle