Quote: Is man Intrinsically Evil??

Every baby that is born, is born dead to God and by nature is the child of wrath having a spirit of disobedience...

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," Eph. 2:1-5

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Colin Murray

We all know that Adam and Eve "fell." i have always believed, and perhaps i have always been wrong, that Adam and Eve were the only two people who EVER had the possibility of NEVER sinning.

When adam and eve sinned, they were cursed ("by one man sin entered into the world")-- somehow this curse was inherited by their ancestors (us). How this works is a mystery. i personally believe that humans WILL sin. Not that they must live in sin, or sin all the time, but that they will. Scripture tells us this. 1 John is sort of Jekyll and Hyde-ish on the issue-- on the one had we are told that we must not sin and on the other hand we are told that whoever says he does not sin is a big fat liar (i added the big fat part).

To me, "sin nature" just means that sin comes naturally to us. We must struggle mightily to not sin. Romans 7 documents this epic struggle. God did not create us to sin- he created us to NOT sin.

That being said, I do believe that it is possible (theoretically) for each of us to never sin again. Of course theory is different from practice.

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"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."
~~C.S. Lewis

Re: murrcolr wrote
"Every baby that is born, is born dead to God and by nature is the child of wrath having a spirit of disobedience..."

So you agree with Augustine??

I do not agree with him. Adam was created (naked) and (innocent) without Law just as was you and I and Jesus.

The Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who (hold) the truth in unrighteousness.

Men are guilty for holding the truth and rejecting it they are not guilty for being man.
The child does not hold truth he has no law.

NO LAW NO SIN!!

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"I grant freely that the theory of "plenary verbal inspiration," involves some difficulties. I do not pretend to answer all the objections brought against it, or to defend all that has been written by its supporters. I am content to remember that all inspiration is a miraculous operation of the Holy Ghost, and, like every operation of the Holy Ghost, must needs be mysterious." - John Charles Ryle

Blayne Wrote:

"""Your confession that all men are conceived in sin is incorrect."""

I don't profess to confess for all men. I only can confess as David did, that I see in me there is no good thing and my pureness of iniquity flows from the head of the waters that are polluted of which I drank even in my mothers womb. I was born of that water and reborn of His Blood.

The Treasury of David
Psalms 51:5
EXPOSITION
Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is thunderstruck at the discovery of his inbred sin, and proceeds to set it forth. This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the confession. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath. And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart;" and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate.

EXPLANATORY NOTES AND QUAINT SAYINGS

Ver. 1,5. Transgressions ... iniquity ... sin.

1. It is transgressions, (evp), pesha, rebellion. 2. It is iniquity, (Nwe), avon, crooked dealing. 3. It is sin, (tajx), chattath, error and wandering. Adam Clarke.

Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, etc. He said not, "Behold, this evil have I done," but, Behold, I was conceived in sin, etc. He says not, "Behold, I, David," a king, that have received such and such mercies from God, who would have given me more (as God told him), who had that entire communion with him, and graces from him, I, even I, have done this evil. No; he keeps it in till he came to this, and then his heart could hold no longer: Oh, behold I was conceived in sin. His debasement was at his auge here. And to whom is it he utters this behold? What, to men? No; his meaning is not to call on men, q.d., O ye sons of men, behold! That is but his secondary aim, arising out of his having penned it, and delivered it unto the church; but when he uttered it, it was to God, or rather afore God, and yet not as calling on God to behold, for that needed not. David had elsewhere said, "God looked down," etc., "and beheld the sons of men," when speaking of this very corruption. He therefore knew God beheld it sufficiently; but he utters it afore God, or, as spoken of himself between God and himself, thereby to express his own astonishment and amazement at the sight and conviction of this corruption, and at the sight of what a monster he saw himself to be in the sight of God in respect of this sin. It was a behold of astonishment at himself, as before the great and holy God; and therefore it was he seconds and follows it with another behold made unto God: "Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts." And it is as if he had said in both, Oh, how am I in every way overwhelmed, whilst with one eye cast on myself I see how infinitely corrupt I am in the very constitution of my nature; and with the other eye I behold and consider what an infinite holy God thou art in thy nature and being, and what an holiness it is which thou requirest. I am utterly overwhelmed in the intuition of both these, and able to behold no more, nor look up unto thee, O holy God! Thomas Goodwin.

Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, etc. We are not to suppose that David here reflects upon his parents as the medium of transmitting to him the elements of moral evil; and that by the introduction of the doctrine of original sin he intended to extenuate the enormity of his own crimes. On the contrary, we are to regard him as afflicting himself by the humbling consideration that his very nature was fallen, that his transgressions flowed from a heart naturally at enmity with God; that he was not a sinner by accident, but by a depravity of purpose extending to the innermost desires and purposes of the soul; and that there was "a law in his members, warring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin and death" Ro 7:23; and that he was one of a race of guilty beings, none of whom could plead an exemption from an evil heart of unbelief, ready at all times to depart from the living God. Till we see sin in the fountain of the heart, we shall never truly mourn over it in the life and conversation. John Morison.

Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is not low enough down yet, he must come lower. It is not enough for him to confess that the water is filthy at the pool; he goes back to the source, and confesses that the whole river is polluted up to its head. The source is unclean; the very spring wells forth foul waters. Thomas Alexander.

Ver. 5. I was shapen in iniquity. I shall not easily be persuaded to think that parents who are sinners themselves and too much under the influence of bad affections and passions, will be very likely to produce children without transmitting to them some of those disorders and corruptions of nature with which they themselves are infected. And if this be a difficulty, I would beg leave to observe that it is a difficulty which affects natural as well as revealed religion. Since we must take human nature as it is, and if it be really in a state of disorder and corruption, and cannot be otherwise, considering the common law of its production, the difficulty must have been as ancient as the first man that was born; and therefore can be no objection against the truth of revelation, but it must be equally so against natural religion, which must equally allow the thing, if it be in reality a fact, with revelation itself. Samuel Chandler.

Ver. 5. Infants are no innocents, being born with original sin, the first sheet wherein they are wrapped is woven of sin, shame, blood, and filth. Eze 16:4, etc. They are said to sin as they were in the loins of Adam, just as Levi is said to pay tithes to Melchizedek, even in the loins of his forefather Abraham Heb 7:9-10; otherwise infants would not die, for death is the wages of sin Ro 6:23; and the reign of death is procured be the reign of sin, which hath reigned over all mankind except Christ. All are sinners, infected with the guilt and filth of sin; the rot (according to the vulgar saying) over runs the whole flock. Hence David reflects upon original sin as the cause of all his actual, saying, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Thus man's malady begind betimes, even in our conception; this subtle serpent sowed his tares very early, so that we are all "born in sin." Joh 9:34. Christopher Ness's "Divine Legacy," 1700.

Ver. 5. Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. Adam Clarke.

With these other confessions of men, I agree and seek the only confession I can make that the Spirit gives me; "Who will set me free from this body of Death", Praise God, Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? """"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."""" So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In Christ my Deliverer: Phillip

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"Christ in you the Hope of Glory" "The life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God."

Hi! ProudPapa
I would like to suggest that you perhaps consider changing your Nick to "ProudPoster" because you have every right to be exceedingly proud of your confession that men are not intrinsically evil.
I was also pleased to read in another Post of yours that you discovered this wonderful and liberating truth from your personal experience and journey which can often be the the most trustworthy confirmation of all.
Thank you for sharing with us.

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Re: intrinsically evil
by proudpapa on 2012/5/30 11:00:31

Is man Intrinsically Evil?? From What I am reading of many of the post it seems that many would answer yes?? Where did such a doctrine originate from??
If the infant is Intrinsically evil than would we not have to agree with Augustine that the infant that dies goes to Hell.

I do not agree that men is Intrinsically evil.

Is sin Substance as the Gnostics taught or is it choice as the Bibe clearly teaches??

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Hi! TMK
I detected a lot of sincerity in your comments. Your thoughts and accompanying questions/doubts clear show that you are searching.
You are correct with your idea that Adam and Eve were not born with an inner compulsion to sin.
Why was this?

How 'bout I explain it this way:
Everything visible in this world is a shadow or an image of what exists in the unseen/invisible world. For instance, the sun is an image of God because it is the origin of all light. The moon is an image of Jesus Christ because it reflects the glory of the sun and "shines in the darkness". This is basically what Paul was meaning when in Romans he said: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen".

Having said that, you now know why it's not for nothing that the Bible tells us that faith is "the evidence of things unseen". Nor should it surprise us that we are to "keep our minds on things above". This is because it is only through faith that we can perceive the deeper things of God and testify of His unseen kingdom.

The narrative of Genesis tells us the story of Adam and Eve from both an earthly view as well as a heavenly view. There are many such dual narratives found in Scriptures which use natural images to reveal supernatural realities ... using the visible to reveal the invisible.
God's thoughts had to be understood by both the cave-dweller of past centuries as well as the computer geeks of today. So, He oftentimes spoke in 'parables' to cause the unseen things to become visible to the inner being of man ... and so did Jesus follow after that same manner.

So, TMK, do you see where I'm going with this?
Adam and Eve were planted in Paradise. Paradise is a natural image of an invisible reality ... a parable. The facts of the narrative remain true for two dimensions ... natural and spiritual ... visible and invisible. Those whose eyes have been opened by the Spirit of Truth are able to transpose (through faith) the natural images in the account of Genesis to reveal "the evidence of things unseen" to their personal selves.

This might explain why it is that many sincere and genuine Christians remain unable to extricate themselves from certain contradictions and inconsistencies in their thinking. They have a "veil over their minds" (like the Old Testament saints) and are blind to the unseen dimensions of their lives and Christian experience. It's not for nothing that the Bible says that you and I who "live by faith" enjoy a far superior spiritual experience than John the Baptist and others who remained unaware of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

So, I have no doubt that the answers you seek will be freely given to you by the Holy Spirit. I say this with boldness because of your obvious sincerity as expressed here about the matter.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If anyone can offer another race apart from the one that came out of the garden who is without sin, let me know please.

I know there is the Serpent Seed doctrine that Cain is one race from the Serpent and Seth is another is from Adam. Too many holes in that theory.

i think to say we are not born in sin is to ignore ,,,the scripture posted by philip

molden and shapen in iniquity

in sin did my mother concieve me , Psalm 51:5. The text reads – “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (NKJV).

Hi! ChristInYou

The bible uses the word sin with four different meanings:
It says that sin came into the world through one man. Here the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master: Satan. He took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: 'You were once slaves of sin'; 'He who has died is free from sin' (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); 'Set free from sin'; 'Sin deceived me'; 'So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me'.

However, just as child is named after his father, so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. 'I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin'. 'He who commits sin is of the devil'. The verb 'to sin' has the meaning of committing a sinful act. 'Go and do not sin again'. Who sinned, this man or his parents?. 'Be angry but do not sin'.

Thus there is the conception and the birth of sin. In between these two stages, sin is in the inner man in a kind of embryonic state.

This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world. Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet sin has not been brought forth as an act. An example of this is hate, of which tier, Lord said that before God it is regarded as murder. So is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin stays behind in the soul, the guilt or debt of sin. This the bible calls the treasure of wrath. Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works. The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: ' The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'. 'Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her'. ' In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins'. Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made his Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be 'the righteousness of God'.

This righteousness is reckoned to us. 'He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world' (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: 'If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness (he goes on committing sin); in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord' (Isaiah 26:10).

These words apply not only to natural life but also to spiritual life: 'It is not good that the man should be alone'. True spiritual marriage consists of communion between the Spirit of God and that of man. 'He who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him'. ' He yearns jealously over the spirit which he made to dwell in us'. The basis of this divine communion is love in perfect freedom .

A person's fellowship with the evil one, however, is based upon compulsion instead of freedom. After the fall, man's fellowship with God was damaged, therefore there was a change in the marriage between man and woman; the image of that fellowship. Freedom and equality were gone: 'The man shall rule over you'. Whenever the gospel of Jesus Christ is accepted, wherever there is knowledge of the spiritual laws, marriage will also share in the restoration. Inequality and dominion are finished, for, as James says: 'From the beginning it was not so'.

Having said that, would it be too disturbing for you to learn that the confession of David was tainted by his own personal circumstances and uttered as such?

Hi! Brothgary

First I wish to address your reference to David's confession in Psalm 51:
As it happens, David was not an orthodox theologian, steeped in the doctrine of original sin. He was facing hard facts in his own life, and when at the same time he confessed his adultery, he saw the ties between himself and his ancestors. Amasa, the son of his (step?) sister Abigail, could have made the same confession.
It is remarkable that the genealogical registers fail to mention the name of David's mother. It is also remarkable that later none of the sons of Jesse, his older brothers, are made leaders of his army. His generals were the sons of his two sisters Abigail and Zeruja, daughters of their father Nahas (1Chron 2:16 & II Sam 17:25) Why did Jesse fail to include David in the number of his sons, when Samuel called to anoint one of them as the king of Israel ? (1Sam 16:10). It is unbelievable that the confession of one men has become the cornerstone of the doctrine of original sin, especially since no one knows the real reason for his confession.

Brothgary, many people are blind to the simple presentation of the bible and so they try to find a solution by means of the human mind. They lack insight into the nature of sin and its manifestations in daily life and therefore they seek the answer in a profusion of words and differentiations: original sin, hereditary debt, hereditary stain, real sins, sins of commission and omission, offensive sins and sins of weakness, mortal sins and pardonable sins. Instead of seeking the origin of sin in the powers of darkness, as personal forces of evil, they only describe the results of the activities of these evil powers. Jesus' word is still valid: that the devil is the sower of the seeds. Even today he prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

There are Christians who, without taking into account the author of sin, differentiate between having sin and committing sin. They say that even Jesus had sin, although He did not commit sin.

Such utter rubbish! Profane rubbish!

Some blasphemous people claim that Jesus the author of righteousness, also had to pray: 'Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?' Actually, having sin means one of the following three things: a person has the devil inside himself and is bound or possessed; he bears in his soul the debt or guilt of sin as a treasure of wrath, as a residue of the sins he has committed; or, a third possibility, his inner man has had fellowship with the evil one without the fruit having been born or manifested as a sinful act.

We read that Jesus never committed sin, and this excludes the possibility of guilt. Neither has He known sin, that is, had contact with the evil one. 'The prince of this world approaches and has no rights over me'. If Jesus were to have sin the only remaining possibility is that the devil dwelled in him. In this case the accusation of the Pharisees would have been true:'He is possessed and has a devil'. This shows the blasphemous conclusions which result when sin is made into en abstraction belonging to human nature.

The idea that Jesus had sin they base on Paul's words in Romans 8:3, that Jesus was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh. The apostle, however, was trying to say that Jesus had taken on the same human nature and flesh through which the powers of darkness infiltrate their work into the visible world. As it says: 'Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience' (Ephesians 2:2). As long as He was on this earth our Lord fought sin that was outside Him. The people He has set free from guilt and bondage also have to fight, not against flesh and blood but against the powers of sin outside them: 'Resist the devil and he will flee from you' (James 4:7).

Sin is first and foremost a fruit conceived by intercourse of the human spirit with an evil spirit. Sin manifests itself in the natural world as work of the flesh. When an evil spirit grips the human spirit (the spirit which He made to dwell in us) the result is sin. When an evil spirit grips our spirit of life (the spirit we have in common with all beings that have a 'living soul') the result is sickness. That is the reason why animals can be sick but are unable to sin. For example, when a spirit of impurity has taken possession of a person, he will also influence this man's spirit of life, and sickness and disease will occur related to the impurity. The expression of a person's face, the shape and carriage of his body sometimes show the type of sin he indulges in. However, if the Holy Spirit dwells in a man he will not only be led on the way of righteousness, but the Holy Spirit will also 'give life to his mortal body', meaning He will make it function after God's laws for the body (Romans 8:11), something his outward appearance will bear evidence of.

James 1:15 says: 'Desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin'. The Old Testament also says the same thing. In Psalm 7:14 we read: 'Behold, the wicked men conceives evil, and is pregnant with mischief, and brings forth lies'. Isaiah 59:4 shows the development of sin in this way: 'They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity! They hatch adder's eggs'. So the struggle against sin is a struggle against evil powers who try to deceive man and infiltrate his spirit.

The great secret of a child of God's victory over sin is in his refusal to identify himself with it. We have to learn to regard sin as a hostile and foreign element. That is why we should not fight self, but the evil one. When we have a festering sore on our hand, we don't regard it as belonging to us, but rather we try to get rid of it as soon as we can. Jesus is the Savior and deliverer because He sets people free from hostile powers. So we do not pray: 'deliver us from self', but rather: 'Deliver us from (the) evil (one)'.

The activities of the powers of sin can be compared to an electrical current. If someone has made contact with a current, he is electrically charged from top to toe. Where ever you touch him, you will find that power has entered into his whole body. He is in touch with the generator in a powerhouse possibly a hundred miles away. To be set free from the current he has to break contact (repent). Sometimes the current is so powerful, that he himself is unable to break free and needs help from others. This is a picture of the way in which a power of sin works. The difference is, that we are not dealing with a natural force but with a spiritual, supernatural one. At the same time this force is a personality. The way in which sin works can also be compared to osmosis. Osmosis takes place when liquids or gases penetrate trough a seemingly solid wall. An example is the way in which the cells of plants get the water from the soil.

As the bible teaches that the whole world is in the power of the evil one, completely occupied by powers of darkness, it is not difficult to understand that the situation we are in is a very dangerous one. A born again Christian is a light shining in the darkness. The evil powers are always trying to infiltrate. Nobody works on a high voltage power line without due protection. A rubber suit insulates him from the power of the electricity. In the same way a child of God needs a spiritual protection, enabling him to stand against the temptations and wiles of the evil one. For we are not contending against visible enemies of flesh and blood, but against the invisible evil spirits in the heavenly places.