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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Is the Roman Catholic Church really rooted in EVIL?

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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

I think our posts are crossing each other, Mary Jane. I'll comment on your words:

Quote:
Doing any of these things with a Catholic would compromise a Christians faith wouldn't it?



That is a personal heart matter, I think. Even Paul, who taught that circumcision was a compromise, also had Timothy circumcised. What was the ruling law in both cases?


Last year I attended two different Catholic Church masses in Toronto while visiting the city. In the first one I knew in my heart I could not take the Eucharist. Yet at the second, the Lord invited me to do so. The difference between those two parishes was phenomenal – not only in the message, but also in the physical symbolism. In the second, I saw no statutes, no Mary’s, no beads, no pope-like processionals. And the Bible was upheld. There was a well-rehearsed worship ban. When we sang Purify my Heart, I was moved to tears. The church was packed with people of all ages and races. I sensed God’s presence. This was a Catholic Church.

I’ve seen this astonishing difference in Anglican churches too: The parish on one side of the street is dead ritual, on the other side is evangelical vibrancy.

All that to say that, what we may interpret as compromise may in the heart be authentic worship of Christ. And the reverse is true too. We can't necessarily know the true heart of another based on their practices and their place of worship.

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2012/8/25 9:00Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by roadsign on 2012/8/25 3:00:22

I think our posts are crossing each other, Mary Jane. I'll comment on your words:

_____________

Perhaps they are. I think we will just have to disagree on somethings and leave it there. I trust GOD will continue to work in both our hearts and reveal HIMSELF in this.

I do think that there is a difference in the example you gave of Paul though then what the RCC teaches and believes. Just to begin with praying to another besides GOD is forbidden in the Bible and the Catholic church teaches their members to pray to Mary as well as dead saints...

As for me having been raised as a Roman Catholic and knowing how far off their beliefs and traditions are I can not take part. To me I can not reconcile praying to Mary, or for dead people, praying to dead saints, confessing my sins to a priest, and submitting myself to the pope who calls himself the vicar of CHRIST. These things are all in direct conflict with Biblical teachings of JESUS.

Thank you again for your gracious communication with me. It has helped me understand better where your heart on this issue is :)

God bless you
maryjane

edit: once last thought, I do agree that many Protestants traditions were brought over from the RCC and I tend not to take part in those either. I think on this we will agree only a heart that is truly seeking to follow JESUS as LORD of their life, submitting unto HIM in all things will ever spend eternity in Heaven. Anything else whether it be following RCC traditions or any religious traditions will not save us from the depths of hell. JESUS alone is the Way, the Truth, and the LIGHT. The heart can not be divided....

 2012/8/25 9:56Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Disclaimer: Sorry but this is gonna be a long one.

Quote:
This is unsubstantiated on two counts: First of all, it is based on what has been read INTO the biblical text. And second, it cannot be validated as true.



This is not the case. The whore of Babylon and her cup are well pictured the way Brothertom shared in one of his previous posts. Babylon is pictured as an image of spiritual adultery, and that is what her cup of mixture is. The Catholic church itself doesn't get the full rights to this title though. This whore's (in Greek the word used for harlot is the same when used for spiritual adulteries) umbrella is large enough to cover all of the worlds false and mixed religions, including many of today's apostate protestant ones. Even the title written on her head "Mystery" is a reference to the mystery religions of Babylon (as the Greek shows as well), and in Greek many of the titles given to her in Revelation 17 are direct references to idolatry.

Quote:
If we have never met one Catholic who knows the Lord Jesus and has put their trust in God, the real issue is more likely the limitations of our experience, our knowledge of church history, and our expectations of what God is doing and can do in the world - yes even today, as in the evangelical movement in some Catholic congregations. It is counterproductive to isolate out the Catholic Church, call them Babylon, while disregarding the fluidity between these two "sides" – including the hostilities of the past.



That sounds really nice and all, but it's a straw man argument. We do not base any truth upon subjective experience, church history, our expectations etc. etc. Our truth is defined quite simply on what the Word says about it. Not even how people receive or respond to the truth, but simply what the truth is. The Word condemns the practices of the Roman Catholic church as false and idolatrous. I'm not one to argue with it, as I didn't write it.

The Lord detests a mixture in worship of Him. This is quite clearly pictured when He was giving the law from Sinai. He was also very specific on HOW He was to be worshiped. Read through Deuteronomy 12 and you'll see how He explicitly forbids the Hebrews to worship in the way that the pagan countries around Him worship Him. He demands to be worshiped by the standard that He sets: The Truth.

Let's take a look at some Roman Catholic "truths";

Mary, Mother of God (a phrase not even found in the Bible) also born without sin (even though in Luke's Gospel she says that she needs a savior), perpetually a virgin (even though Jesus had siblings) equal with Jesus, co-Redemptrix, and Mediatrix.

Lie.

In communion the bread becomes (by faith now, though before they believed it was literal until science debunked it) the LITERAL body of Christ and the wine becomes His LITERAL blood, prayed to and then consumed (cannibalism and vampirism), even though the apostles specifically condemned the consumption of blood (For the record I don't think that Roman Catholics are actually cannibals or vampires, but apparently they think that they are).

Lie.

The blood of Christ does not cover all of your sins but instead you have to pay in purgatory for your own.

Lie.

Prayers to the dead (the sin of necromancy) and bowing down in front of statues (the sin of idolatry) are acceptable acts of worship.

Lie.

The forbidding of marriage for the priesthood and the nuns, even though Paul referred to such practices as the doctrine of demons.

Lie.

Isaiah 2:6
For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob, Because they are FILLED WITH INFLUENCES FROM THE EAST, And they are soothsayers like the Philistines, And they strike bargains with the children of foreigners.

Influences from the east? The RCC has that one in spades.

I could go on and on...

These are not simply "minor doctrinal differences". The Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's probably have more in common with our beliefs than the RCC, but we're quite quick to distinguish them both as a cults (and rightly so), yet accept that born again believers can take part in Roman Catholic worship and fellowship. We have a pretty vicious double standard I'd say.

And like I said above, the Catholics do not have the exclusive rights to the title of Babylon. They have Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, and many other largely apostate groups clamoring for rights to that title these days. I'm not saying this is true of every member of every one of those groups, but soon there will be a line drawn in the sand, as we're seeing more of these denominations fall into apostasy with ordinations of homosexuals, ecumenism, denial of basic Christian doctrines, etc. etc. They're becoming quite willing to share in her immoralities, which is why the Lord calls them out, lest he throws them onto a bed of sickness, though He has given time for repentance.

Quote:
In one town I lived in it wasn’t long ago that Protestant and catholic school children hated (ie feared) each other so much that they would walk on opposite sides of the street from each other – and even beat each other up. Where did they learn to do this?



That bears no essence on the issue at hand, again, truth is not defined by how people act (no matter what title they give themselves), but simply upon what the Bible defines as truth. If these children had the truth, they would share it with the Catholic children, out of concern for them, not avoid them like the plague.

Quote:
Strong anti-Catholic rhetoric is fear driven – much like we see in Jesus day where the Jews hated the Samaritans. They stayed away from them thinking that would keep them pure. Why the need?



I'm glad that you've brought this point up. In the account we have in John 4 of Jesus with the Samaritan woman He deals with this exact issue. The Samaritan woman wanted the living water, but before He would give it, He addressed her sin. Then to divert the issue, she tries to play the same game that's being played these days saying, "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

The Samaritan's of antiquity and of modern times, treated the Torah in a similar fashion to the way the RCC handles the New Testament. They disregard it's specific commands on how the Lord was/is to be worshiped, and instead substitute it for their own invention. Same God (so they claim), but just a little bit different way of doing it.

How does Jesus respond to this though? Does John say that He commended her for giving it her all, and talk about the limitations of her experience, knowledge about Jewish history, and expectations of what God can do in the world?

Nope.

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit AND truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit AND truth."

Sorry Mormons. Sorry Jehovah's witnesses. Sorry Roman Catholics. Your forms of worship didn't make the cut, even though you use the same names when talking about God and Jesus.

To say something to the contrary or to claim that God is somehow pleased with worship mixed with pagan idolatry and lies is simply to argue with the Words of Christ. Nothing less.

This is not "fear driven anti-Catholic rhetoric" that puts them on the other side of the fence, and keeps us away from them. This is the truth. The truth that sets free. If we didn't love Catholic people we wouldn't tell them the truth. We would just say, "Go ahead and continue in your abominations, we both serve Jesus, right?"

One cannot be a true doctor and not hate sickness and disease. One cannot be a true officer of the law and not hate lawlessness. One cannot be a follower of Christ and not hate the things that separate others from Him (like false religions).

My closest friend in Japan is a former Catholic. He'll be the first to tell you that the reason he converted is because someone loved him enough to tell him that he was following a lie. And he struggled through it. He rejected it at first, but the Truth set him free, and he came out from amongst Babylon because God calls His own out from her. The former Roman Catholics I know would be offended at the idea that one would stay within such idolatry, and they'd be the first to say so.

This is truth. Speaking the truth does not make one popular. Jesus said He came and was born into the world to testify to the truth. So they crucified Him for it. If one loves the Truth and proclaims it like He did, then they shouldn't expect anything less. He told us to expect it.

So all in all, I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but in all humility I have not read anything into the text that wasn't there. You've done the opposite though, and taken something away from Christ's words that were.

-Grant

 2012/8/25 13:15Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, Jesus said "i have not come to condemn the world ,but to save it."sinners need a saviour.it does not matter what tag is placed upon them... catholic, mormon etc.the Holy Spirits job is to convict and lead them . we are to tell them the truth in wisdom ... there is only one mediator between God and man,Jesus and show them in the scriptures in wisdom... the light dispells darkness.we need not major on all the darkness but present the truth in love and kindness.i have seen this work hundreds of times with roman catholics in my life. my own mother disowned me when i left the church and my wife left me when i entered the ministry.20 years later my mom was praying with me the sinners prayer. i ministered with the catholic charismatics in its beginning and also with a priest/evangelist who had invitations to allow the people a saving knowlege of Jesus.jimp

 2012/8/25 16:10Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
i ministered with the catholic charismatics in its beginning and also with a priest/evangelist who had invitations to allow the people a saving knowlege of Jesus.jimp



I hope by that you mean that you ministered TO these Catholics and not in cooperation WITH them.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.

Ephesians 5:6-11

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. THEREFORE DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and TRUTH), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, BUT INSTEAD EVEN EXPOSE THEM,

 2012/8/25 22:09Profile









 If we refuse to come out, we must remain in the sin, and judgment of it.

"I hope by that you mean that you ministered TO these Catholics and not in cooperation WITH them."EverestoSama

Sadly, this is a prevailing attitude in many Charismatic circles. It is the cliff top of Ecumenicalism; the plateau where you begin to launch your slide into the "One God of all religion who loves all."

At the bottom, there is neither sin, nor holy conviction of it. There exists only a loving God that promotes happiness and permissiveness as a lifestyle, forged into whatever religious practice you deem best for you, AND FELLOWSHIP THERE IN BECOMES DEFILING, AS HOLY DOCTRINES ARE TRAMPLED UPON IN PRACTICE!

Mary Worship and Papal worship are "ok",and at times various genuflections toward the favorite saint of the day around your neck, or the statues surrounding the Roman temple Catholica; "It is just my way of worshipping in my faith!" The Word advises us differently.

"COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!"

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

" And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,

Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

" For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."

That is lovingly advising them that they MUSY repent, and turn to Jesus alone as they their back on idolatry, to rest and remain in God. There will be no salvation or any other way in this situation.

 2012/8/26 22:14
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re: If we refuse to come out, we must remain in the sin, and judgment of it.

hi, what a terrible thing that millions of catholics got saved and filled with the Holy spirit,providing the greatest growth surge in ag churches. the priest would tell his testimony that he was a priest and leader of a large church without a personnal relationship with Jesus and told them that is what Jesus meant when He said to depart for Inever knew you and have an invitation for those who wanted a knowing relationship with Jesus.hundreds came...you were not there and i am happy you were not with your preconceived biases and critical spirits. jimp what it was is called revival.

 2012/8/26 22:46Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by jimp on 2012/8/26 16:46:38

hi, what a terrible thing that millions of catholics got saved and filled with the Holy spirit,providing the greatest growth surge in ag churches. the priest would tell his testimony that he was a priest and leader of a large church without a personnal relationship with Jesus and told them that is what Jesus meant when He said to depart for Inever knew you and have an invitation for those who wanted a knowing relationship with Jesus.hundreds came...you were not there and i am happy you were not with your preconceived biases and critical spirits. jimp what it was is called revival.

________________________

Jimp

I am not saying a Catholic can not be saved. I am praying for my own mother to repent of her faith in the Roman Catholic church and seek JESUS. I believe that Catholics can repent and be saved but I don't see how a person who was a Catholic(as I was) who embraced all the pagan false traditions can go on in that idolatry after coming to know JESUS as LORD and Savior. Someone who is truly living for JESUS is not going to keep praying to Mary, dead saints, following the Pope or placing their hope and faith in Mary.Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Light.

God bless
maryjane

Edit: I wanted to just add I don't think attacking the RCC is the way to reach out to those lost in that religion. I do believe we must speak in love and let the LORD lead us in sharing with those in the Catholic church or the lost in general.

 2012/8/26 22:54Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
what it was is called revival.



If they got saved into the saving grace of Jesus Christ through faith in Him OUT OF the Catholic church than this is incredible. If they were led into or to continue in the Catholic Church, then this would not be a revival. This would be an abomination.

Jimp, respectfully, unless you can show me WITH SCRIPTURE why it's acceptable for any born again believer to participate in idolatry, and to encourage others to do the same, I frankly could care less about your personal experiences whether I was there or not. We will not be judged by the truth we created out of the understanding of our own experiences. We will be judged by the standard of His Word. If you cannot show me from the Word why it's acceptable to remain in the Roman Catholic church, then I must conclude that you have no real argument or say in the matter.

Quote:
I am not saying a Catholic can not be saved. I am praying for my own mother to repent of her faith in the Roman Catholic church and seek JESUS. I believe that Catholics can repent and be saved but I don't see how a person who was a Catholic(as I was) who embraced all the pagan false traditions can go on in that idolatry after coming to know JESUS as LORD and Savior. Someone who is truly living for JESUS is not going to keep praying to Mary, dead saints, following the Pope or placing their hope and faith in Mary.Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Light.



You're 100% correct. Don't let anyone ever try to convince you otherwise. Every ex-Catholic I know will tell you that they're so glad someone had the love to tell them to come out of the false religion of Roman Catholicism, and showed them the truth. It's only those who hate Catholics that think you don't have to tell them that they're involved in idolatry, doctrines of demons, blasphemy, etc. etc. by remaining in the Catholic church. They think that as long as they use the name "Jesus" for their god it's all OK, isn't it?

 2012/8/26 23:01Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, let me be clear... i am not trying to impress you or anyone else. i serve Jesus and not any man or group.read romans 8 a few times. unless the Holy Spirit builds the house then the house is built in vain.if you preach the truth in love, you can have revival in your life. i am to share the good news of Jesus, not the condemnation(krino) of man. krino not lest you be krinoed.did i tell you about the horrible day when we brought a whole convent of nuns to our church to be baptized.paul at mars hill used the unknown god of the greeks to preach Jesus. this is what is called wisdom.if your mother is rc sit down with her and recite the apostlescreed with her and remember catholic means universal. lead her to Jesus for He is the saviour. you dont have to tell her about a piece of bread being her God and if she eats of it she is eating her god.jimp

 2012/8/26 23:32Profile





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