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Quote: LOLOLOL. Oops, I almost tipped over my tea sitting on the arm chair.
this is about 1/8th of the problem with SI... the arm chair computer ministers.
| 2012/5/15 10:23|
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It was a blessing to read your post and the spirit in which you wrote. I do hope and pray the best for you, your pastor, and church family. It sounds like you all have a lot of good ministry going on there. My prayer is that you all will follow the Holy Spirits leading in all that you do. I hope and pray the best for Joe also. Having never been to your local church I have no way of commenting further but maybe some good will come out of this that Joe has brought up in that it will cause the leadership to be more cautious in following the Word and Spirit of the Lord Jesus.
The reason, I say what I have said, is that I have learned from over the years of being a pastor since 1990, that prayer before God continually is very important so that the ministry will be of the Holy Spirit in the Word of God. There were times that I could have done some things differently if I had only prayed about it more. I have since learned that following the Holy Spirits lead is very important and that I must stay in the scriptures studying as well as praying in the Holy Spirit allowing Him to break me and continually fill me with the Spirit because I must decrease so that Christ can increase. There is a real need today for Spirit anointed preaching and ministering to receive the life that comes from the Word in power, so that people can truly experience God and His full salvation of deliverance and restoration.
Again I do pray for you all and also for Joes future in the Lord and also that God will work all things out for His good and the good of all involved because we know that Jesus is building his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, and we are to make our calling and election sure, and to work our own salvation with fear and trembling as God works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Blessings in Christ,
| 2012/5/15 10:56||Profile|
East TN (for now)
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this is about 1/8th of the problem with SI... the arm chair computer ministers.
LOLOLOL. Oops, I almost tipped over my tea sitting on the arm chair.
I so wish we had "LIKE" buttons on here!!!
God bless you,
| 2012/5/15 13:17||Profile|
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I'll get a full reply when I can, but I can say this - I presented to them what was taught by traditional 'WOF' - and after the reply - I can safely say they are indeed NOT a traditional WOF church, however - there is still a teaching that puts a lot of emphasis on words.
I'm sure we will get it hashed out offline.
| 2012/5/15 16:12||Profile|
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Let me further clarify what it means to put an emphasis on "Words"...it's this emphasis that sits parallel to "Word-Faith" but if I can explain it more clearly perhaps you'll see how with our train of thought it does not worship the MEANS but rather the END (if you follow the MEANS to an END error in much of the Word-Faith movement).
The emphasis on "Words" at our church is moreover emphasised on the believer to do the following:
Can we agree that "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"?
Can we agree that it's hard to preach, pray for someone, or do anything in the mission field without the Word of God, and without words physically being spoken (or for a Deaf or Mute for arguments sake, then "displayed")?
So follow this train of thought: The more you confess with your mouth the promises God made to you in His provision of the Holy Spirit given on the day of Salvation, the clearer revelation you will have on what was given to you which will enable you to do the Good works of Faith so many people feel "unworthy" to accomplish.
The best way to "dumb this down" in an example is the one I wrote to Joe:
When I first got married, it was hard to believe, it was "unreal"! However, the more and more I had to sit with a bank teller or introduce my longtime friend as "My wife..." the more it became a reality in my life. As I kept saying it over and over, *that which was already a fact* was becoming a reality.
A better yet example:
My recent missions trip I took was for 21 days. In those 21 days I believe nearly every day I was given a time to preach, a time to pray for those who responded, a time of fellowship with the villagers, evangelism, one or two days feeding the poor, a medical camp day, etc.
The more I preached, the more I spoke the Word of God in all of my sermons and sharing, the more encouraged I was of my own faith! I could see it at work!
It's like much of the church today is a motorcyclist with the helmet on, the gear, the pads, the bike even, but they just sit on it equipped; *they never ride the bike*! They go to church and listen to one man preach, they pray privately for that "one couple" that does the missions trips, etc.
Would you believe the 2nd week Joe came to our church in the midst of the annointed worship he felt a burden to pray for our lost relatives. He did the right thing (all things done "In Order") and B-lined it to our lead pastor, shared it with him in his ear, and was assisted on stage to speak about it then join in corporate prayer for the lost relatives. Our Lead Pastor took the mic back from Joe and encouraged everyone to take that ONE person that first comes to mind and at least phone call them this week to respond to this "Word of Faith" from Joe. No, our pastor didn't word it as "Word of Faith" but I'm teasing Joe because it was a "Word from the Lord" that Joe responded, in faith, and acted upon. The word in this case was to pray for the lost, lost relatives, which I do dear pray we all here can agre is biblically sound! We are taking the Word of God (the preaching of Gospel of Christ) and responding to it. Nothing more, nothing less. We weren't being called to direct the Lord inasmuch as Joe didn't "direct" the congregation in prayer but responded to the Spirit's voice. Follow?
We are a church open to hearing what the Spirit is saying, both during worship and the preaching of the Word. In that moment. What Joe did wasn't "Word-Faith" movement-like, and neither was our Pastor's challenge for us to act on our prayer. It could be called a "Word of Faith" but see then it becomes a Buzz word or phrase that may elude to another thought pattern that may throw someone off....but it's as simple as the story is above. Nothing more, nothing less.
So I hope you can see it as this: The more you preach the Gospel the more revelation you receive that you have it in your heart. Again, Phil1:6 "by the acknowledgement of every good thing that is within you"...
...you give *honor* and acknowledge the "Word" of God inside of you when you preach it! It's something every believer should be doing, preach, preach preach!
It's such an easy concept- you say it, you believe it, you believe it, you say it. It's not mystical, it's not magic, it's not a mind-trick, it's nothing this world wouldn't understand in the natural...
...in the natural world how many times do you hear (and would you agree..?) that words can damage someone. Oh if you knew how many prisoners shake their heads YES when I talk about how they perhaps were told they'd amount to nothing as a child.
So how many times have you come to a brother to lift him up in a time of pain, and as you share a Psalm or a scripture you find yourself encouraged as well?!
That's all we are saying, in simplification, when we stress the matter of "Confessing" it, or using "words". As you listen to the simplistic message of Christ flow out of your mouth in preaching the Gospel how much more are you being encouraged as well as the audience!
I sat in my bed that first night on the missions trip and thought, wow, I just stood as this white guy amidst a totally different culture and tribe and preached the Gospel! Whoa! Thank you Lord!
So we don't encourage people to simply grab ahold of a promise and use it like a magic wand over your total'd vehicle in the snow and expect God to "listen to your authority" and fix it in an instant.
We encourage people to take the simple message of Christ, and to P R E A C H it, and as you do, you are displaying a measure of faith to the Word that is in your heart. You are seeing it come out of you in the form of Words as in a preached sermon, a prayer, etc.
I think of the Centurion's faith. He came to Jesus in a "prayerful" type of "request", and also had his own measure of "faith" *displayed* in "confessing" that all he needed was an authoritative Word from Whom all authority is given (Christ).
If Salvation is displayed in a *confession* of sin, and a *confession* of Him being Lord and savior, how is it "demon doctrine" to say your Faith is displayed in a confession of a promise- which is to *preach the Gospel* to all the world?
It's because Joe heard such a emphasis on "words" coming out of ones mouth and "confession of faith" that he immediately shut down, ignored the "unpacking" of the rest of the sermon. He heard it being compared (because it is similar at face value, but as our doctrine was outlined to say there is plenty taken too far in the movement!) to Word of Faith movement and just let it *supersede* all the evidence and fruit in our congregant and leaders life that shows that we are not a 1. Prosperity Gospel church nor do we 2. Believe you have authority over God by the working of some faith-force.
| 2012/5/15 21:40||Profile|
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First, as I stated earlier in my posts - the people there are awesome - as I'm sure you can see - by my friends reply. I've never taken issue with the people, quite the contrary - they are amazing.
I did go and speak with the pastor in humility, brokenness, and 'one on one' wanting to keep the matter confidential and ended the conversation asking for a phone call to discuss as my exact words to him were - "My TRUST in the church was being shaken."
I didn't receive a phone call, but an email - not from the pastor, but from the worship leader - PheonixDBR, a long time friend of myself and spouse. Trust went from shaken to shattered, how could I ever go to (at the time) MY pastor in confidence about anything else going forward? I have already forgiven this, just FYI :)
So as I have the email; he did a great job of explaining what they do / don't believe.
Here is 1 teaching where I still feel very unsettled in my spirit.
""OUR FAITH WILL ONLY BE EFFECTIVE AS WE CONFESS WITH OUR MOUTHS"
My Question:Do you notice this changing around of words to form a teaching?"
Answer(from PheonixDBR): No. You are taking Confessing with our mouths to mean salvation. He is referring to my encouragement at home group. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The more I CONFESS IT WITH MY MOUTH in preaching or encouraging someone or In speaking the word of God against circumstances- the more I have faith, because I am hearing it over and over. Word of God Spoken Heard Faith is built.
My thoughts on that oh so often quoted verse - Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God; is that verse is taken out of context - it is meant for salvation - for the non believer.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.
The Pharisees had the word of God and spoke it often yet most didnt have faith or turn to Jesus. They bless me with their mouth and curse me in their hearts God said. Obviously this isn't the case for us disciples of Christ! But I see a warning there, especially when this is taught to new believers.
Life & Death is in the power of the tongue because the tongue confesses Christ as Lord unto life, and death if it doesn't.
And I will share some of my testimony after being converted.
Freed from the spirit of fear
Once I read this verse that said God has not given us a spirit of fear. I was in study hall in high school and I felt so much fear, but I kept saying that verse over and over in my head to the point I was saying fear you have no place in me. After about 30 minutes of praying this in my head, the spirit of fear just left me, it was amazing, oh I was free from fear - oh God be praised.
I never said a single word out loud, it stemmed from a believing heart in his word as I was getting to KNOW him as he reveals his attributes and character to me via his Spirit and Word to my inner man.
Id like to get further input from members here on this above teaching of course keeping it edifying and in love! Because Ive NEVER heard this teaching from any of my teachers Tozer, Ravenhill, Carter Conlon, Tim Delina, Jim Cymbala, Dwight Moody, CS Lewis, David Wilkerson. Yet all of them have preached faith and praise God for it!
To me this teaching is adding to what was originally taught from the scripture.
I believe that 2 basic litmus tests for any teachings are 1) Has it been preached since the cross or does the teaching come from some time (1800ish) years later and we start hearing it over the past hundred years and just accept it. 2) It needs to be for all humanity (in this case mutes are excluded)
After a long email that helped to relieve a lot of fears regarding the churches doctrine - it ended with a few points of pointing out David Wilkersons false prophecies and some of his doctrine of suffering. (All of the points he mentioned I've read about quite extensively years ago - I've always made it a point to examine all my own teachers doctrines as well.)
Now I understand his intent was to make me feel what he was feeling about his teachers, and to help me understand the BALANCE of 2 key areas - repentance to God, and faith towards Jesus.
At any rate, the members of this church are just incredible and the testimonys there are amazing!
I will be getting together for lunch with PheonixDBR sometime soon! LOVE YOU GUYS and I am keeping it in a proper perspective - I understand that there are a billion more important things than this - and those billions are the unsaved!
Thank you all so much for your prayers - we all know how real this is!
| 2012/5/15 21:48||Profile|
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LOL did we seriously post at the exact same time? You beat me to it! :D :D :D
| 2012/5/15 21:52||Profile|
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You didn't go to the one who preached it, and you know who I'm talking about. He has told me, and I told you, to call him and meet with him with any questions on what he preaches.
This is not the first time you dropped a letter and left something, or someone, in your life.
This is also not the first time you acted out of fear.
"We're due for another plane crash" - sound familiar?
No Joe, you didn't have to say "God didn't give me a spirit of fear!" several times to yourself in the mirror as a mantra to relieve yourself of it.
That example alone proves once again how you are missing the point and somehow ignoring the 6-7 year history we have in your knowledge of who I am. Do I sound like the type that would say to do that? To just repeat it over and over until you "feel it"? No.
Instead see my explanation above how what you do have inside of you becomes evident as you confess it in the form of preaching the Word of God. Something we are doing as a church and you need to start doing with *A* church, even if it's not ours :).
| 2012/5/15 21:55||Profile|
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Joe if we follow your logic why bother preaching the Gospel?
Yes, there are those who will cry out "But we cast out demons in your name" and He will say "Depart from me, I never knew you!" ...
...and those "types" of people that, like the Pharisees, simply "Said" the "Right words" but had no conviction in their heart are evident by their fruit.
Now, since when did I say the confession of the word FORCES you to truly believe. If it "Follows" the conviction of your heard it is a "Good" "true" confession.
The same can be said of anyone confessing Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior, yet you've done it and so have I! Others have done it as a form of "Well if I say this, I get that! Got it, done!" that doesn't stop you or I from saying the same exact confession but from a pure hearts cry.
So I refuse to let others (Pharisees, and those described by "I never knew you") to stop me from having a good confession of faith which is to preach the Gospel man. That's it.
| 2012/5/15 22:03||Profile|
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hi, in business as in all parts of your life if you say you can not ;guess what you can not and that is why a lot of people are not successful. a positive attitude and confession is important in business and in life and in the church...we can do all things through Christ... allows us to try and doing all things. we then are successful in a lot of the things we try. people get healed,saved,delivered and God does supply all our needs. an old sales story... a salesman who was discouraged was on the bridge fixing to jump off of it and his boos and great friend went up to talk to him and help him and after 15 minutes they both jumped.negativity is contageous also. judge a place by the fruit.look at the members. you never judge a teacher by how smart the teacher is but how smart the students become.jimp
| 2012/5/15 22:15||Profile|