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 Re:

KingJimmy - just a curiosity question: are you former military by chance?

 2012/4/22 10:25









 Re:

Pilgrim writes...........

"In my opinion, True Believers voting will not affect any outcome. We should be about the Lord's business and no other business."

I tend to agree with that brother. Someone famous once said " what would have happened if every confessing believer refused to fight in wars." Interesting thought is it not? If every believer got their total identity , not from what they worked at, or their social position in life, or what ever nation they were born into, but from Christ alone. The only kingdom they would strive for or fight for ( spiritually) would be the Kingdom of God, how would that kind of light and salt have effected the world............bro Frank

 2012/4/22 18:04
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

I stand with RBanks and Pilgrim on this. Christians are to be a force to be reckoned with in the earth -- not because they've got their man in the government, but because they've got "power with God... and with men." Notice the order there. Power with God first. From that flows power with men. We've had it backwards, and end up with neither.

God says He will give the overcomer "power over the nations." He gave that kind of power to Jeremiah (Jer. 1.10). But Jeremiah never was in office. He gave it to Elijah. Who ran the country back then? Ahab, or Elijah?

As to Frank's original question about compromise, I wonder if it isn't God Himself who is behind Romney getting as far as he's come. That must certainly choke those who are obsessed with getting a "Christian" man at the country's helm... or all is lost. God has to teach his people a lesson.

Allan


_________________
Allan Halton

 2012/4/22 18:52Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Jimmy,

Quote:

Yes, but again, the way our political system is designed in America, to not vote is to still participate in the system. And you can no more divorce yourself from living in this reality than you can divorce yourself from the fact that the person who lives next door to you is your neighbor. Even if you try to distance yourself from them by buying 100 acres of the land, that will still not change the fact that the person who shares borders with your property is by definition your neighbor.



Good point.

I am often reminded of the old story of the fisherman during the hurricane. He only wanted to rely on God for help. As the flood waters continued to rise, he continued to pray.

When the waters were six inches high, a man in a big truck came to rescue him. The man replied, "No, I am waiting for God."

When the waters were six feet high, a rescue boat came by and called out to the man (who was in his second floor window at this time). He replied to the man in the boat, "No, I am waiting for God."

Finally, the waters had flooded the house. The man was standing on the last portion of the roof that wasn't flooded. A National Guard helicopter came by and tried to rescue him. The man shouted, "No thank you. I am waiting for God."

A little while later, the waters rose and the man drowned.

Standing in Eternity, he said, "I don't understand. I prayed for God to rescue me."

An angel responded, "What do you mean? God sent a truck, a boat and a helicopter."

I have heard that little story (in some form or another) several times...including at least a couple of times here on SermonIndex. The point is that the Lord does not always answer us via the methods that we expect or want. In fact, there are individuals praying for an end to abortion, yet they are unwilling to vote even for a candidate who says that he opposes it.

Of course, a president doesn't even have the power to stop ALL abortions (although one could issue presidential orders and funding directives that restrict abortions from using government funds). However, a president will choose the judges (just or unjust) who will sit and decide such matters.

Like you said, an American citizen is participating in the process of determining the next president even if they stay home. In fact, I already explained that one of Clinton's advisers visited our university and stated that one of their election strategies during the 1990s was to lower the voting rate of Christians. They didn't expect Christians to vote for Clinton. However, they did hope that they would be less inclined to vote for the other candidate (or choose a third party).

So, they issued statements about Clinton's "faith" and simultaneously released statements meant to question or scrutinize the "faith" of his opponents. The former Clinton adviser noted that they felt certain that Christians would spread the information "like wildfire." He noted that it worked because of the lower voter turnout from Christians in both the 1992 and 1996 elections.

In this sense, he said that the desired "non-participation" of Christians is crucial in close elections, especially the 1992 election. And, of course, he admitted that it was one of their most important efforts during the election.

Many Christians are unaware that their lack of participation is often just playing into the goals of others.

Now, is it "compromise" to vote for a man who isn't a Christian? Is it "compromise" to shop at a grocery store that isn't owned by Christians? Is it "compromise" to buy a home from a real estate company that is NOT owned by Christians? Is it "compromise" to be employed by a non-Christian company?

I do understand the conflict when it seemingly interferes with "non-involvement" types of views. Years ago, a brother on here said that he would not stand up if his wife was being physically attacked by a burglar. Why? He didn't believe in "resistance." So, he believed that it was better to refrain from participation even if it was his wife or child being physically assaulted.

In my view, his "non-participation" would result in an outcome that could have been prevented by simply impeding the intruder. No one is saying that you would have to harm or kill an intruder; however, it could SAVE A LIFE if you impeded the intruder from carrying out what he wanted to.

If there was a teenager riding his bicycle in the street and he was about to be harmed by a speeding truck, I don't think that it is compromise to loudly call out to him. I also don't think that it would be compromise to contact an "unjust judge" and urge something to be done (perhaps a stop sign, lower speed limits, speed bumps, etc...) to prevent future injuries on that road. It may not seem "spiritual," but it may preserve a life. In fact, by doing nothing (and maybe even hoping that someone "worldly" will do it and we reap the benefits from it), one could argue that our lack of collective participation led to injury.

In presidential elections, I have never met a person who voted for the man based solely upon his claim of a religious faith. Typically, it is a collective analysis of the claims and promises of that candidate that elicit a vote. And, like I said, the person elected will only serve a four year term. However, each candidate will try to achieve a plurality of votes (enough to win) by urging voters to support him because of what it is that he is trying to accomplish.

Oddly enough, these sort of discussions are often louder during presidential elections. And, of course, they are often urging restraint when it comes to "compromising" by voting for a candidate who may share many of the same moralistic views that believers have. You rarely hear the same decibel level when it comes to candidates who might be more obvious with their views (pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality, etc...).

This is exactly what the former Clinton adviser said is hoped for. Christians are numerous enough to affect the outcome of an election. While an elected president might not have immediate impact upon issues like abortion or homosexual activism, they do have other subtle powers that will affect our families, children and neighbors.

Moreover, one of the greatest powers of the Chief Executive is in the appointment of judges. They determine the legality of laws. Abortion became the law of the land based upon the views of six people in 1973. Since then, MILLIONS of children have been slaughtered by parents who were empowered by a few politicians and the judges that they appointed.

Still, there are many believers here who feel the liberty of God to vote. No one should be so audacious as to think that they are "lesser" believers, immature or "unspiritual" for sharing their voice via a vote. Paul used his Roman citizenship to invoke a legal appeal "unto Caesar." This was long before representatives were "elected" too. Yes, his ultimate outcome was on behalf of his heavenly citizenship...but the same is true of us all. It is quite Biblical to do what you can to take care of your family and neighbors. If a law is passed that would essentially harm your neighbor (born or unborn), then a lack of participation is just standing out of the way and letting it happen.

Ultimately, I am unconcerned with pleasing man in regard to the liberty that I believe that God has given me to vote or not vote. We should ALL act only through much prayer and Biblical consideration. I have heard quite a few believers say what they think in regard to such matters. However, my concern is only with pleasing the Lord and in doing what is right in regard to the place that the Lord has placed me. If the Lord leads me to share my voice about such issues via a vote, then I will do it.

I don't think that it is "compromise" if, after much prayer, I vote for some non-Christian that some other believer thinks should be ignored. Christians are not voting for a pastor. They are simply voting for an executive who will be in office for a four-year term but upon whose decisions may have impacts to your family, children and neighbors. Choosing between two candidates is no less spiritual than when choosing between two candidates to hire for a job. It is simply saying who you think is the best for the job at this particular time.

May the Lord lead each of us.

*By the way, I do think that we should be very careful about making subtle insinuations too. We shouldn't imply something about candidates of which we claim to be refrain from participation in the effort to invoke non-support for that candidate.

Earlier, it was said, "And of course he was pro abortion for much of his political career in the north east." To be clear: Romney was only in office for a short time (four years in Massachusetts). Further, he was anti-abortion BEFORE and WHILE he was the Governor of Massachusetts. The extent of his views can be analyzed and critiqued. However, we can't rely upon the Wikipedia for hearsay if we make such claims. IF we are going to make such claims, we need to get it right -- or risk being guilty of lies, gossip or hearsay. Nor did we read a comparison of the various views on abortion of both major candidates. Moreover, we shouldn't even go about voicing such insinuations to begin with if our goal is to simply foster a message about possible "compromise" based upon the religious views of the man.

Still, I don't want to digress from the topic at hand. I believe that EVERY believer who can vote should pray long and hard before they vote. If they don't feel that they should, then they should not. If -- after much prayer, study and contemplation (including what points others have made) -- they don't feel a Scriptural prohibition regarding it, then they shouldn't be concerned if someone else voices it.

This is one of the reasons that I lament the political topics here on SermonIndex. They have the ability to divide us by differences in views regarding such matters rather than uniting us upon what is ultimately important. Even though we all long to please the Lord and see His face (and see His will accomplished in the Church), our differences in opinions, maturity or views can supplant what it is that God is trying to accomplish by SermonIndex. If we aren't careful, individuals will being to make mental judgments about others that seriously divide the Body of Christ that needs true unity of Spirit now more than ever.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/4/22 19:54Profile









 Re:

These are neat little stories and lots of talk and human reasoning, but I don't think they are anymore God's ways, God's will, or in God's Word than we're the zealots in the century just before and just after Christ's 1st coming. Flesh gives birth to flesh & Spirit to Spirit. I feel no compelling from God to vote this time, but I believe Romney will win. Many will again put their "faith in the red, white, & blue", but they won't return to God with all their heart, mind, soul, & strength. They are putting their hope in earthly kingdoms/rulers, & God will allow it to let them see the fruit off such hope. It will come to nothing. It will still come crashing down. Not being negative or pessimistic, just telling you to watch and see. If my hope was in "our constitution", a Mormon presidential candidate, & our "history of strength as a country", you'd have to wonder if I wasn't like the Israeli zealots of old. My hope is in Christ - period. I am pro-life, obviously. Thing is, Romney was pro-choice, now he's pro-life? He was for forced state healthcare, now he's not!? He was liberally moderate, now he's a "conservative"? I feel no leading from God to vote for either candidate. I feel compelled to pray for the harvest, pray for what the Lord's going to do in America, & prepare my spiritual house now for what's coming.

 2012/4/22 20:56
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Chris

you wrote:Many Christians are unaware that their lack of participation is often just playing into the goals of others.

__________

actually I have thought about that before and it does not change how I feel the LORD leading me in this area of life. I can not get caught up in the scheming of others, it's not my place to try to hinder others from reaching their goals, but it is my place to follow JESUS. I agree that if you feel the LORD leading you to vote then you should do so. I do not feel the LORD leading me to and so I won't :)

But I will join you in prayer and ask HIS will be done on earth as it is Heaven.



God Bless
maryjane

 2012/4/22 21:26Profile









 if it smells like babylon, walks like babylon....

suffice to say, it is babylon, and those who sup of its provisions, and drink of the cup, are the children of darkness, deluded, listening and believing the lies of their father, the devil who is the father of all lies:

-------------------------------------------------
Submitted by James Miller, chief blogger at the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada

SS Agents and Prostitutes- Another Case of the Worst Rising to the Top


"Austrian economist F.A. Hayek’s most famous work, The Road to Serfdom, is renowned for identifying two general rules in regards to politics and the state. As the title of the book suggests, Hayek was keenly aware of the massive centralization of power taking place during the World War II era as Keynesianism took off and planned economies seemed like the next, natural step in the art of governing. He correctly warned that economic intervention begets further intervention which would eventually lead to totalitarianism.

To reinforce this claim, Hayek explained a truth which haunts all those vying for public office. Because the state, by definition, acts as a monopoly of force and predation, those who seek to brandish its authority don’t always have the most charitable intentions in mind as they clearly prefer an occupation of violence over harmonious enterprise in the private sector. As Hayek writes:

Advancement within a totalitarian group or party depends largely on a willingness to do immoral things. The principle that the end justifies the means, which in individualist ethics is regarded as the denial of all morals, in collectivist ethics becomes necessarily the supreme rule.

While Hayek wrote on the mindset one needs to be successful in implementing the state’s various decrees, this type of behavior often spills over into otherwise unrelated government activities. Such delinquency is fostered by the fact that those who operate within the public sector have little regard for the money and privileges designated to them as it is paid for on the backs of taxpayers and not from their own personal funds. One of these embarrassing (for the ruling class, not those forced to support them) moments came to pass recently in Colombia as a few Secret Service personnel, tasked with preparing a summit venue for a visit by President Obama, were caught both soliciting high end call girls and stiffing them after the deed was done. From the National Post:

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Secret Service said Wednesday that three employees will leave their jobs over the sex scandal in a hotel in Colombia which tarnished the elite presidential protection agency’s image.

A total of 11 agents and at least 10 military personnel are being investigated over the incident, which reportedly came to light when a prostitute got into a dispute over payment with one of the agents.

The New York Times on Wednesday carried an interview with one of the prostitutes, who said that the affair came to light after an agent offered her $30 for sex after earlier agreeing to pay $750.

By virtue of being a gang of thugs in charge of watching out for one of the biggest bullies in the world, the Secret Service’s reputation has long since been tarnished. There is something to be said when the leader of a supposedly free and friendly country must employ brutes to shakedown visiting tourists at his “place of residence” and designate areas as “non free speech” zones on whim.

Rather than a small security force, the Secret Service has evolved, like all executive government agencies inevitably do, into something far more sinister. Not only can it unilaterally revoke the protection of speech guaranteed by the Constitution, but it has proven to be staffed with those inept and feeling entitled enough to waste the public’s dime on seedy shenanigans.

Hayek, while a brilliant mind, was not right on everything. He saw the welfare state is legitimate, a need for regulation into private industries such as education and food, and the necessity of the state in providing for individual and national defense. Yet even he was able to distinguish how political power attracts those who will use in the worst manner.

The Secret Service agents who procured prostitutes may be relieved of their duty but it will only serve as a cautionary tale for the rest to keep their off-duty exploits better concealed in the future. The waste and graft will go on despite a pledge from Obama for a “rigorous” probe and his potential successor’s promise to “clean house.” These promises are just political theater used to conceal the playground like mentality which possesses the attitudes of all those who wield the guns of the state."


 2012/4/22 22:03









 Re:

Jeff writes.........

"These are neat little stories and lots of talk and human reasoning, but I don't think they are anymore God's ways, God's will, or in God's Word than we're the zealots in the century just before and just after Christ's 1st coming. Flesh gives birth to flesh & Spirit to Spirit."

I would have to agree with you brother. I do believe that Chris believes his own reasoning with all of his heart. And so therefore I can genuinly agree to disagree with him. To be Spirit led is to be Spirit led. In these matters mens opinions will not be changed by other men, only by revelation. Its interesting that in Jimmy's thread about identity, lots of the subjects that are being touched on in this thread would apply to that thread.

If I identify myself as a citizen of this country and feel obliged, by mere accident of birth, to vote or fight or do anything really because I feel loyalty to the state, and not because I am compelled( for men are not compelled to vote or fight) then this is my choice and we suffer the consequences of our choices. It matters such as taxes, where we are compelled to pay, we should pay as Identified in Scripture and live peacably amongst men where possible.

And as interesting as all that is, I still wonder if those who do choose to vote( and I agree that it is not sinful unless one is violating ones concience) can vote, in good concience, for a man who utterly denies the trinity and the very core of everything we are as Christians. I am the more interested in the logic of those who have in the past stated that we need a Christian or more Christians in the Whitehouse. Either they have to say that this no longer is their position, or, and I think this more likely(because it would take humility to say that a stance you once held rigidly is now changing) they will begin to say that Momonism is really just a sect of Christianity....... bro Frank

 2012/4/22 22:09
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: if it smells like babylon, walks like babylon....

Hi Brother Hez_Willing,

Quote:
suffice to say, it is babylon, and those who sup of its provisions, and drink of the cup, are the children of darkness, deluded, listening and believing the lies of their father, the devil who is the father of all lies:



Would you care to explain what this means? I don't understand the relevance of the Secret Service scandal in regard to the topic.

Perhaps I am reading too deeply into this, but I think that it would be incorrect to insinuate that everyone who votes or decides that one candidate is better than another is guilty of "supping of [Babylon's] provisions" or are "the children of darkness."

After so many fiery debates over the years on SermonIndex, wouldn't it be sufficiently wise to simply encourage believers to commit to a great deal of prayer, study and contemplation before they decide to vote (or who to vote for)?


_________________
Christopher

 2012/4/22 22:25Profile









 Re: brother chris

not meaning to seem churlish, or obtuse...or even mean spirited, but i wrote what i wrote, not meaning to insinuate ANYTHING, but for those who desire to read my words, to take what they may from them.

As the LORD leads me, and with unending sorrow and grief, i say, its too late, God has been and He is watching, and His wrath, His fury and His anger stretches to the Heavens.

to who much has been given much will be expected, and its too late, evangelicals will not disuade Him, conservatives will not disuade Him, nor liberals, socialists, redistributionist's.

of course, this whole scripted charade will play itself out,with all the usual drama, and vitrol, ill spoke words, the 'war on terror' will run serialized on a TV near you, homosexuals will keen against evangelicals, evangelicals will continue to beg for money and influence to fight the culture wars, a never ending stream of babies will be cast into the Valley of hinnom sacrificed to the demon of pleasure, generals will testify on C-Span as to the need for even more national treasure to enrich their craven lusts.

what is happening now in America, reminds me so tragically of reading the Book of Judges...its the period of Judges, every man did as he saw fit.

It might matter to you, who prevails in this charade called politics, but Judgement is coming, and many will die. i do not write that flippantly, or with perverse glee, but with a broken heart. God be with you all, neil

 2012/4/22 22:57





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