SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 Next Page )
PosterThread
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Krispy's: So yes, on the outside we can all point to people who seem very spiritual. Anyone who grew up in the church can "play the game" and fool everyone. But when someone walks away from the faith scripture says they proove once and for all what was going on in their hearts.

Many will say on that day "Lord Lord... look at all we did for you!" and He will say "Depart from me, I never knew you."




I think this is why the old timers used to be very careful who they told were 'saved.' It seems that over the last 100 years or so this caution has been largely abandoned. Its almost as if ministers somehow want to reassure folks that they are saved. The cautious approach of the past seemed to emphasize perseverance in faith, the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness of the Spirit. In other words, and if I might use some hyperbole, some theological persuasions in the 19th century were so strict no one was saved, but today everyone that 'believes' is saved.

With a person's soul being the most precious thing they can be concerned with, it would seem to me in order to take a long and hard look at what it means to be saved. We don't get a second run at this. I don't want to simply believe something because it quiets my concerns unless I know it is truth. If there is one anomaly in my reasoning that may place my soul in jeopardy, I want to give attention to it. "Depart from me for I never knew you..." is not an acceptable route. I want to be SURE I am right with God. Eternity is a very long time. That's been my approach. ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/4/11 12:47Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

DRAW BACK INTO PERDITION!...[ Hell ]

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

BLOT OUT!? It is evidently possible, for He warned of it.

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT OUT his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."...............................

This is connected to defilement; willful sin committed to those in the holy church. Some dressed in White, some defiled.

AND THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."....
.....................................................
These are former Holy Spirit filled Christians in Hell.

How is it possible to twist so clear of a warning into this dogma?; I can't see how. I see OSAS as a destructive lie, and administering a false security rather than eternal security. We have a will, and we can choose sin, lust, pride, exalted self-love, ambition to make a name for ourselves, and on and on. We then will be defiled.

Our Satanic Natures [ insert your name ] are a bottomless pit, wicked without end. If we act upon them, we will die. We have a fount, that cleanses us, if we confess and forsake our sin. This is what Jesus meant when he spoke of eating His flesh, and drinking His blood; LIVING A LIFE OF MERCY....received from God as He beholds us, spotless, because of His sacrifice.

I could walk over to that corner, kneel down, and reject Christ, and worship his majesty Satan, the devil, right now. Will I? Not. But if I did, would I be yet blessed and saved. Of course not, for I have blasphemed.

I do not walk in fear that my every sin will damn me, nor do I believe that the backslider is damned..[ thank God, for I was one...] God is filled with mercy. At some point, however, the scripture is clear that there is a point of no return. The Gospel within us must produce Holiness, for without holiness, no man shall see God.

"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Jesus.
-quoted Brothertom


Then I added another post by brothertom:

So, how do you adjust the passage below that makes it very clear that some "WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST?"and yet they fall away. Should this passage be deleted? It must be overlooked to maintain such dogma, do you agree?

THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

"For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."....
.....................................................
These are former Holy Spirit filled Christians in Hell.

So, laying down Spurgeon, and all commentaries other than the Word, and your heart faith, How do you reconcile this, with your idea of OSAS? Is this a misprint?
-quoted Brothertom


Then I added this quote from Robert:

I think this is why the old timers used to be very careful who they told were 'saved.' It seems that over the last 100 years or so this caution has been largely abandoned. Its almost as if ministers somehow want to reassure folks that they are saved. The cautious approach of the past seemed to emphasize perseverance in faith, the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness of the Spirit. In other words, and if I might use some hyperbole, some theological persuasions in the 19th century were so strict no one was saved, but today everyone that 'believes' is saved.

With a person's soul being the most precious thing they can be concerned with, it would seem to me in order to take a long and hard look at what it means to be saved. We don't get a second run at this. I don't want to simply believe something because it quiets my concerns unless I know it is truth. If there is one anomaly in my reasoning that may place my soul in jeopardy, I want to give attention to it. "Depart from me for I never knew you..." is not an acceptable route. I want to be SURE I am right with God. Eternity is a very long time. That's been my approach. ;-)
-quoted Robert


Krispy I really believe these need to be addressed.

Blessings…from bother rbanks

 2012/4/11 13:05Profile









 Re:

Tom,

I apologize ahead of time for copy/pasting, but I have a busy afternoon and evening and I want to address you question. Someone (may have been you) asked it yesterday. I could write a lengthy post and it would basically say the same exact thing... so allow me please to save myself some time.

This was written by Douglas Kelly and perfectly represents my own understanding of that scripture. Dr. Douglas F. Kelly is Professor of Systematic Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. He has written numerous books as well.

"So then, what does Hebrews 6:4–6 mean? If human language means anything, then these verses teach that some people, who experienced great privileges with the Holy Spirit and Christ Himself, can become apostate, die, and tragically wind up in hell. Five massive spiritual experiences are attributed to these people in Hebrews 6:4–5: They were once enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good Word of God, and tasted the powers of the world to come. Yet in spite of such glorious experiences in the very midst of the church, they may fall away so that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance (Heb. 6:6).

What can this be but a sad and solemn illustration of what Jesus taught about the seed that fell on rocky ground, received the word with joy, grew rapidly, but soon dried up because it had no roots (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21).

As the Holy Spirit ministers in the life of the church, the seeds of truth are spread everywhere. Even unbelievers are profoundly influenced as the Spirit ministers to His people. The Spirit ministers in answer to prayer (Luke 11:13), He ministers in worship, and He ministers in Word and Sacrament. In His work among the sheep, His power is felt by all — even by those who are not sheep but goats.

People who are never born-again by the Holy Spirit can be touched by His tender and mighty power in such a way that causes them to break down and weep. People who never submit to Jesus as Savior and Lord are able to feel the anointed preaching of the eternal Gospel of God. Thus, they have really been enlightened; they have tasted of the powers of the world to come and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, as wonderful as such impressions are, some are never born-again. The feelings and impressions get no deeper than seed on stony ground. There will be superficial growth for a time, and many will express joy that comes as a result of being around the ministry of the Spirit. But, as a seed without roots dries up, the professing faith of the unregenerate vanishes.

It would take a greater mind than my own to comprehend pastorally and psychologically how people can have such spiritual impressions and not believe. Indeed, I have grieved to see it more than once. But as tragic as it is to see, the experiences listed in Hebrews 6 in no way constitute an argument against the perseverance of the saints. Rather, it shows how high some can go in terms of spiritual experiences, without going all the way to a saving knowledge of God in Christ.

What must we say to those who have strayed? It is the same thing that the author of Hebrews says to us: If we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firmly unto the end, we can rest assured that we are the house of Christ (Heb. 3:6). If those who have strayed humble themselves in prayer and repentance, they will find a throne of grace and a seat of mercy (Heb. 4:15–16)."

Krispy

 2012/4/11 13:13
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

quoted from krispy post:

What must we say to those who have strayed? It is the same thing that the author of Hebrews says to us: If we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firmly unto the end, we can rest assured that we are the house of Christ (Heb. 3:6). If those who have strayed humble themselves in prayer and repentance, they will find a throne of grace and a seat of mercy (Heb. 4:15–16)."
-quote

This is the same I and others have stated and the "if" is a big word and I see no "OSAS" in this quote which I agree with.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2012/4/11 13:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is the same I and others have stated and the "if" is a big word and I see no "OSAS" in this quote which I agree with.



Thats because you're not reading this in the context of "Perseverence of the Saints"... Dr. Kelly does teach that if one is truly regenerated and saved by God then they can never fall away.

If you have been truly saved then it will never occur to you to walk away... and while we are still prone to sin, we will abhor our sin and see it for what it is... something to flee from. Anyone who loves their sin is not repentent and is not saved. Thus effectively closing the door on the attitude of "I can live any old way I want to and still be saved." No, all it proves is that you need to be saved.

That is a pillar of Reformed Theology. You read into that quote that one CAN lose their salvation. Dr. Kelly is saying that if someone appears to lose their salvation then it is because they were never saved.

Krispy

 2012/4/11 13:35
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

If salvation was a static, one time event, then OSAS would have some legitimacy. But salvation is not a static event.

Salvation is the ongoing dynamic life of Jesus Christ and the Prince of Peace commands us to abide in Him or be cast forth as a useless branch.

Question: Can one who has experienced His life and tasted of the good things to come, stop abiding in Christ and fall away even though they had a born-again experience 30 years earlier?

Pilgrim

 2012/4/11 13:43Profile









 Re:

I think I answered that question.

Quote:
Salvation is the ongoing dynamic life of Jesus Christ and the Prince of Peace commands us to abide in Him or be cast forth as a useless branch.



You seem to be hinting that we have to earn our salvation. Please clarify and put my mind at ease that this is NOT what you are saying.

Krispy

 2012/4/11 14:05









 Re: The simple and clear word of God. Can we hear?

"I asked you in my post : "So, laying down Spurgeon, and all commentaries other than the Word, and your heart faith, How do you reconcile this, with your idea of OSAS? Is this a misprint?".....THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

"For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." ...The Bible.

And you respond with this double-talk; spin Doctor; Commentator; who recites and minces that they were not partakers of the Holy Spirit really....they just thought they were, and reacted emotionally. He denies the direct word, as you do.

"This was written by Douglas Kelly and perfectly represents my own understanding of that scripture. Dr. Douglas F. Kelly is Professor of Systematic Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. He has written numerous books as well." KK

Honestly, Krispy, it is a dangerous thing to desire to twist the clear and simple Word of God to protect your own belief system. You will not respond according to the Word, or your heart faith, for you are indoctrinated, and cannot extract yourself lest other pillars of this belief system may crash down upon you too.

I say this for your sake. The Love of God and the Fear of God are inseparable, and this doctrine subtly removes the necessity of walking with God to bear holy fruit unto Him.

I personally know of several that have fell away, and no longer believe or confess Jesus....but were deceived into thinking that however they lived, [ mostly just for themselves] they were saved. I knew them before, and bore witness with the Holy Spirit that lived through them.

God does not Live to Bless you, He lives to conform you to Himself....and the spiritual consequence of faith in this system, is that Conviction of Sin is removed from you by the condoning doctrine that you are blessed by God anyway.

It also removes the Fear of the Lord, which is fundamental to honor and receive conviction of sin, both of the heart, and of the Fleshy lusts. If I am saved anyway, then I do as I please, for my reward is the same anyhow.

So, in this sense, OSAS kills, and opiates Holy living and I have personally witnessed this. I receive you as a brother, and I respect your opinions, but cannot but reprove you when you will not respond to the simple and clear Word of God...and remember...this was given by God to us as a warning.

 2012/4/11 14:10
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Dr. Kelly seems to be ok when he stays with the bible but when he brings his teaching to explain his interpretation is when he departs from the scriptures with his own understanding. Many may put Dr. Kelly’s teachings on level with the bible and explain away the “if” but as for me I will stay with the bible.

For example there is no passage of scripture in the bible that contradicts all the warnings in the bible and there is no “OSAS” passage in the bible because Jesus warned us and told us to persevere and that He would give us all the grace we would need to persevere if only we are faithful to follow Him. I would never tell someone they are saved because they must experience it and know it for themselves. I would never tell someone that once they are saved then they will always be saved but only that they are to make their calling and election sure.

I wouldn’t want to be the preacher that many in hell are looking for because they were told “once saved always saved”. Jesus never said it and none of His apostles and they didn’t have a “Doctor degree” but they were full of the Holy Ghost. I’ll just stay with what the scriptures say!

I have also enjoyed the pleasant dialog Krispy and btw I do believe that I have eternal security in Christ and that He will keep me as long as I am responsible in keeping my faith in Him to follow His leading. I would never teach OSAS because I fear God too much and would never want to lead anyone astray but I do teach that we do have eternal security by truly abiding in Christ.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

 2012/4/11 14:10Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1978
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I think this is why the old timers used to be very careful who they told were 'saved.' It seems that over the last 100 years or so this caution has been largely abandoned. Its almost as if ministers somehow want to reassure folks that they are saved. The cautious approach of the past seemed to emphasize perseverance in faith, the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness of the Spirit. In other words, and if I might use some hyperbole, some theological persuasions in the 19th century were so strict no one was saved, but today everyone that 'believes' is saved.



I think Robert has hit a nail on the head here. I remember reading about old time Methodist conversions. The people would pray with a penitent until the witness of the Holy Spirit came to that person's spirit. Sometimes this would be moments, and sometimes hours of staying before God. Parham and a great deal of the modern day pentecostal movement came out of Methodist roots. As I grew up I heard a great deal from the old timers about "praying through". I don't hear that so much any more.

Something that was brought up earlier was the concept of justification apart from rebirth. This was a doctrine that was taught where I come from. Asking for forgiveness of sin and believing on Christ's atoning sacrifice brought justification (forgiveness of sin) and a second experience, sanctification by faith, brought about the rebirth. It was taught that you were not truly born again until you had received the sanctifying grace of God and that this was a second definite word or experience.

It seems to me that this is simply a product of Parham's Methodist roots. Methodist's taught the second blessing and Parham simply tacked on the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a third blessing. However I had some problems with this not exactly squaring with Jesus conversation with Nicodemus which seems to imply the rebirth at conversion.

Some truths:
- We are saved by grace through faith. We do not labor for salvation, bur receive it as a free gift of God.
- Forgiveness has already been purchased and offered. In that sense we are forgiven before we even approach God. However this forgiveness must be received or appropriated through faith and repentance.

I say all that for this reason. It seems to me that we have somehow reduced regeneration to a verbal statement and a belief that if we have made the correct verbal statement that we are born again. But there is something to be said for doing business with God in such a way that when we are finished we know beyond a shadow of a doubt through the witness of the Holy Spirit that we are born again. Perhaps we have lost something along the way that we should have held on to.



_________________
Travis

 2012/4/11 15:24Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy