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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1700


 Re:

Quote:

It was a wake up call to those within those churches that there are some who have decieved themselves, and others into thinking that they are saved. Paul is saying... no, if you practice such things you are not saved.

This is the evidence of not being saved. Thats what Paul is saying, in my opinion. Thats why we are exhorted to "exam yourself to see if you are in the faith". If you behave in such ways... you are not in the faith.



So you are agreeing that there are Christians or people in Church who think they are Saved (I never use this word 'Saved' but just for your sake I am using it) while they still practice sinful lifestyle?
And these verses of warning are given to them. This is exactly what I said in my previous post. The warning messages are medicine given to such people.

Same way there are people who also get into disbelief, that they have lost their salvation because of their Sins after they came to Christ. All the verses of Eternal security are given as a medicine to such people telling them that if they Confess God is Faithful to forgive their sins in Jesus name.

So both Eternal security and warning messages are both true. One cannot say that only one of them is truth and other is lie. It is like a doctor who gives same medicine to all his patients. He might surely save the life of few patients but he will also kill many because the medicine to one disease is a poison to other.
Every preacher who takes such stand of administering only one kind of message are like such doctors who are killing many patients.

This is why if you had listened to Kieth Daniel's sermon on war of saints during Sermon index conference, he is unwilling to take a stand.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/4/11 10:54Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 600


 Re:

Years ago, while having a bible a study with some baptist friends, one of them asked me, how sure am I with my salvation.

I was never asked directly that way before, and still having
hangover with my secular education, I told him, who knows what will happen in the future, that one day I will commit a
big sin and that I will not be able repent.

Of course, my friend argued OSAS with me, but I was simply so philosophically resigned into uncertainty.

In my solitude though, that question bothered me a lot, am I just chasing the wind? and what is more despairing is the sad realization on the impossibility of living a perfect life.

Who will deliver me from this utter despondency?

 2012/4/11 11:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This is why if you had listened to Kieth Daniel's sermon on war of saints during Sermon index conference, he is unwilling to take a stand.



This is probably a wise move. The trouble is that there are so many areas to define it is hard to have the conversation without misunderstanding. Free grace type teachings focus on belief to the exclusion of repentance and obedience. This is where my concern would be in teaching eternal security. I never had a problem for believing that when folks having repented are living by faith. It's when modern mass evangelistic methods couple with eternity security that I think we have an issue. ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/4/11 11:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So you are agreeing that there are Christians or people in Church who think they are Saved (I never use this word 'Saved' but just for your sake I am using it) while they still practice sinful lifestyle?
And these verses of warning are given to them. This is exactly what I said in my previous post. The warning messages are medicine given to such people.



Yes, of course, this is what I have always said. There are tears among the wheat... goats among the sheep. People seem to "fall away", but according to scripture they are not "falling away" as in losing their salvation... they never had salvation to begin with. By leaving the faith, according to scripture, they prove once and for all that they were never of the faith to begin with... for if they were they would not have departed. 1 John 2:19

The implication of that passage is that the opposite is also true. If you truly are of the faith... you will not depart from it. Departing proves you were never of the faith.

Krispy

 2012/4/11 11:20









 Re:


Thank you, Brother. Downloaded these two plus a few others and this one because it appears to be a good safeguard -


Cauterizing the Conscience - Robert Wurtz II

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron. (1 Timothy 4:1, 2)

Our passage deals with events that would take place after the writing of the text, in latter times. The words could be translated 'latter seasons'. These times will go on until the coming of Christ at the second advent; times of great deception that are characterized by some departing the faith as a result of demons animating false teachers with both power and doctrine. Paul warns Timothy and then adds, If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. (1 Timothy 4:6 KJV) We need to be aware of the fact that the enemy seeks opportunities to introduce falsehood into the churches of God to get folk to 'depart from the faith'. That is his primary objective and standard operating procedure (modus operandi).

Seared Conscience

Some will depart from the faith, by the influence of hypocritical liars. It is strong language, but true. The hypocrisy comes about as the result of a seared conscience. When the conscience is seared the mind is no longer summonsed to consider the truth of an action or idea. The Greek word is the root for our word cauterize. This makes the person very dangerous to the churches of God because they can behave in an ungodly or hypocritical way as if it were normal Christian behavior. Through constant abuse, the conscience can become as senseless and unfeeling as flesh that is seared with an hot iron. This is a most terrible condition. This is the effect of unconfessed sin upon the conscience. This is man refusing to agree with God in what He has said about something. It cooks (as it were) the feeling of the conscience until at last it has no sensation. Where once the sinful behavior wore on the mind, now they can sin without any pain of conscience. This is dreadful state. Men sin and have no sense that they need to confess and repent. Such giving over of a man or woman to sin is among the severest of judgments and makes one a prime candidate to be employed of Satan.

Synchronized Knowledge

Some refer to an aspect of the conscience as sequent; that is to say, it follows action. God placed in all men a sense in which they can measure right from wrong. This allows man to have a faculty of judgment. The effects of conscience are first seen when Adam and Eve had sinned and then clothed themselves with fig leaves and they hid themselves from the Face of Jehovah (Genesis 3:8). They knew God's will and that they had transgressed God's will. It was before their minds. The pain of conscience followed their action. Knowledge of God's will informs the conscience to function properly. This is why it is important to rightly divide the word of truth. The conscience is being programmed.

Nevertheless, all peoples have a moral sense as they were created by God in His image. (Romans 1) It may be buried under centuries of darkness but men and women have a sense of what is 'fair', and unless their consciences are completely seared they know how people ought to behave towards them and how they ought to behave towards others. This is as simple as anything, but it is amazing how easy it is for some people to diss the golden rule. We have a knowledge of what ought to be and we can compare it to what is happening.

Conscience and the Nervous System

Everyone knows basic right and wrong. The conscience simply weighs the actions against what is believed to be right. It is like an umpire in our heart making judgment calls. The strange thing is that it is unaffiliated with our own desires. God placed it there as if to give Himself a voice in the heart. This is tied directly into our hard wiring as human beings. "Lie detector tests are based on the science that although we may be very proficient at telling lies, whenever we do so we trigger a kind of spiritual smoke alarm which alters the rhythms of our bodies. This universal sense of right and wrong was sharpened in the Ten Words given to Israel and it had a God-wards factor too in making God the centre of our affections and allegiances." (R. Bailey) To think that the disruption internally is such that it can be picked up electrically. What then is a seared conscience? When a person has so abused this mechanism through self-deception and repeated unconfessed sin, that they have effectively cut off some of the sensors and it does not detect like it should. It has been circumvented in one of more areas.

Refusing to Agree

When a person refuses to agree with God about something they have done they are going to suffer the consequences. God says one thing about a behavior or action and they say something else. They will not let God be true. They then substitute their own false religious views. Paul gives an example of this when he writes of those who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:3) I am inclined to believe that these manmade laws give a show of wisdom in will worship, but actually open the door to much sin and evil. Why? Because God has not placed these restraints on man, Satan has done it in order to give himself an occasion to tempt men for their lack of self control. (1 Corinthians 7:5, Colossians 2:20-23) A concomitant of legalism and mysticism is asceticism. It is the pseudo-spiritual position that revels in rules of physical self-denial. Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch! These prohibitions increase from not handling to not even touching. This same legalism was manifest in Eve’s carnal exaggeration, “You must not touch it, or you will die.” (BK Comm. Genesis 3:3; cf. Genesis 2:16-17) This is not what God said. To say more or to say less than what God said is the same crime; the one path leads to legalism and the other to license.

Summary

Satan and his demons use people that have a seared conscience. He empowers and counsels them to deceive the churches of God. Men either name the name of Christ and refuse to depart from iniquity or they name the name of Christ and add all manor of manmade requirements to the faith. God's precepts are carefully articulated to fit the man He created. They are a perfect match. To alter them is to invite disaster; one way or the other. Many with a seared conscience think God's word is legalism. They don't see worldliness as a problem. They can behave as sinners with no pain of conscience by simply putting a 'christian spin' on what used to be flagrant compromise. Others err on the opposite side as do the Catholics and forbid the priest or the nun from marriage setting themselves up for horrific scandal.


Satan uses teachers who's lives do not match their profession. He uses them to alter the face of genuine biblical Christianity. Such is the way of Satan; put the car in the ditch on the right or the left. It matters not so long as it is off the road. Keeping the conscience informed and sharp by spending time in sincere study and reflection in the word of God will provide us with a good conscience. Agree with God. Don't allow your own personal preferences to trump God's word. You will sear your conscience and in time be a candidate for use by Satan. He is always looking to deceive. He is looking to provoke or lead believers to depart from the faith.

 2012/4/11 11:49
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Krispy you said.."Yes, of course, this is what I have always said. There are tears among the wheat... goats among the sheep. People seem to "fall away", but according to scripture they are not "falling away" as in losing their salvation... they never had salvation to begin with. By leaving the faith, according to scripture, they prove once and for all that they were never of the faith to begin with... for if they were they would not have departed. 1 John 2:19"

I understand what you say and think it is more credible than the easy believism/OSAS postion. I also understand that OSAS is different to the 'perserverance of the saints' doctrine. I have much more respect for the reformed position on this, although don't see it that way.

However I still think what you said above does not deal with situations like Chris' sister. People who we would say exhibit all the fruit and evidence of being regenerated , but then fall away and depart from Christ. I don't think saying all the sciptures that refer to those who depart are about those who never were really saved in the first place makes sense and in fact takes away any application intended for us to be warned.

Here is the problem you would have.... Eternal security (defined as you can never loose salvation if you are really regenerated)is promoted as giving the saint assurance, BUT the person(s) you give this assurance to because they exhibit all the graces deemed neccesary, who then turn away from Christ you will then say they were never His! So you have then to admit you gave false assurance to them at the beginning. So in reality, as you cannot possible judge of what any person may do in the future, you cannot give anyone assurance of being eternally secure....making the doctrine unworkable.

However, if you consider and teach that we are eternally secure 'in Christ' as long as we continue abide in Him and trust Christ for our salvation we have a continual assurance of eternal life IN HIM. I think think this gives me much more assurance than the possibility that 'what if I fall away and prove I never was regenerate in the first place?'


_________________
Dave

 2012/4/11 12:19Profile









 There is a falling away. 10 were virgins. 5 had oil.

DRAW BACK INTO PERDITION!...[ Hell ]

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

BLOT OUT!? It is evidently possible, for He warned of it.

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT OUT his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."...............................

This is connected to defilement; willful sin committed to those in the holy church. Some dressed in White, some defiled.

AND THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."....
.....................................................
These are former Holy Spirit filled Christians in Hell.

How is it possible to twist so clear of a warning into this dogma?; I can't see how. I see OSAS as a destructive lie, and administering a false security rather than eternal security. We have a will, and we can choose sin, lust, pride, exalted self-love, ambition to make a name for ourselves, and on and on. We then will be defiled.

Our Satanic Natures [ insert your name ] are a bottomless pit, wicked without end. If we act upon them, we will die. We have a fount, that cleanses us, if we confess and forsake our sin. This is what Jesus meant when he spoke of eating His flesh, and drinking His blood; LIVING A LIFE OF MERCY....received from God as He beholds us, spotless, because of His sacrifice.

I could walk over to that corner, kneel down, and reject Christ, and worship his majesty Satan, the devil, right now. Will I? Not. But if I did, would I be yet blessed and saved. Of course not, for I have blasphemed.

I do not walk in fear that my every sin will damn me, nor do I believe that the backslider is damned..[ thank God, for I was one...] God is filled with mercy. At some point, however, the scripture is clear that there is a point of no return. The Gospel within us must produce Holiness, for without holiness, no man shall see God.

"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Jesus.




 2012/4/11 12:22









 Re: There is a falling away. 10 were virgins. 5 had oil.

Quote:
However I still think what you said above does not deal with situations like Chris' sister. People who we would say exhibit all the fruit and evidence of being regenerated , but then fall away and depart from Christ. I don't think saying all the sciptures that refer to those who depart are about those who never were really saved in the first place makes sense and in fact takes away any application intended for us to be warned.



Ah... but see, you're looking at the external. None of can judge the heart. That is why in 1 John 2:19 it says they "manifested" that they were not of us. In other words, we can not judge the heart but the actions show the true condition.

By their fruits...

So yes, on the outside we can all point to people who seem very spiritual. Anyone who grew up in the church can "play the game" and fool everyone. But when someone walks away from the faith scripture says they proove once and for all what was going on in their hearts.

Many will say on that day "Lord Lord... look at all we did for you!" and He will say "Depart from me, I never knew you."

Krispy

 2012/4/11 12:32









 Re:


In your understanding, Brother Krispy - would you say that the ones that you describe in your last post, of those "not being of us" - were 'Not the 'Elect' after-all or in the first place'?

That's a hard question for me to ask - believe me, because it could place an awful lot of fear in those that are back-slidden. The prodigals and the like - because it could cause them to feel that they can't Return ... as we believe Chris' sister has the potential to do - GOD is able.

 2012/4/11 12:42









 It is impossible to renew them unto repentance.....fall away.



"In other words, we can not judge the heart but the actions show the true condition.

By their fruits...

So yes, on the outside we can all point to people who seem very spiritual. Anyone who grew up in the church can "play the game" and fool everyone. But when someone walks away from the faith scripture says they prove once and for all what was going on in their hearts."..................................Krispy K.


So, how do you adjust the passage below that makes it very clear that some "WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST?"and yet they fall away. Should this passage be deleted? It must be overlooked to maintain such dogma, do you agree?

THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

"For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."....
.....................................................
These are former Holy Spirit filled Christians in Hell.

So, laying down Spurgeon, and all commentaries other than the Word, and your heart faith, How do you reconcile this, with your idea of OSAS? Is this a misprint?

 2012/4/11 12:44





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