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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

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savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1946


 Re: LITV



"THE KJ IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS BASED ON THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS GREEK MANUSCRIPTS, ALL OTHER MODERN "TRANSLATIONS" ARE TAKEN FROM THE VATICANUS "GREEK" MANUSCRIPTS WHICH ARE CORRUPT..."

This quote above,from Trekker, is not true. See below.

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV) — First Published in 1976 it is the first literal word-for-word literal translation of the Bible, with each word closely observing the grammatical constructions that God used in the original languages.This Bible is an exact literal, word-for-word translation of the Masoretic Hebrew Text and the Greek Received Text (Textus Receptus), the main texts used by the Authorized/King James Version translators. Verbs are translated as verbs, nouns as nouns, adjectives and adverbs also being true to the original. Young’s Literal Translation produced over 100 years ago attempted and largely succeeded in such a translation. However, close examination will show that though it is very good, it departs from the original in many places. It is very common in other English translations to translate verbs as nouns. For instance, “hater” when the word is a verb meaning “to hate.”

You may download the LITV here:

http://www.thewordnotes.com/litv/litv.htm

And note the following Jim. This Bible does not cater to authoritarianism or nicolatianism, or as you put it, "make it more friendly for nicolatian leadership that wants to rule over Gods people."

Examples:

1) Hebrews 13:17 Yield to those taking the lead of you, and submit, for they watch for your souls, giving an account, that they may do this with joy, and not with grieving; for this would be unprofitable to you.

2) Hebrews 13:24 Greet all those leading you, also all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

3) 1 Timothy 3:1 Faithful is the Word: If anyone reaches out to overseership, he desires a good work.

4) 1 Timothy 3:5 But if anyone does not know how to rule his own house, how will he care for an assembly of God?

5) 1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who take the lead well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those laboring in Word and teaching.

6) 1 Timothy 3:13 For those having served well gain a good grade for themselves and much boldness in faith, those in Christ Jesus.

7) 1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, younger ones be subject to older ones; and all being subject to one another. Put on humility, because God sets Himself "against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones."

8) Romans 11:13 For I speak to you, the nations, since I am an apostle of the nations, (I glorify my ministry)

The above examples should suffice. Go compare.

 2012/4/11 7:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This quote above,from Trekker, is not true. See below.



No, technically he is correct. You bring up the Young's Literal Translation, and while what it says about itself is true... it is not a "version". It's certainly not a readable version to most Christians. Have you ever tried to read it? A literal translation is just that, a literal translation. It's not conversational English.

With the exception of this literal translation of the RT, Trekker is correct that there has not been one single modern version since 1880 that has been based upon the RT.

There have been almost 90 modern versions in English since 1880... all claiming to give a clearer picture and translation than all the others. You would think after that many they would have gotten it right by now!

Hint: it's all about publishing and copyrights. It's about money $$$.

Now... if you all dont mind... CAN WE STICK TO THE TOPIC???

Krispy

 2012/4/11 7:30
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1946


 Re: Can we lose our salvation? May it never be!


Q. Can we lose our salvation?

A. No

The question to be asked rather is, whether Christ can lose any the Father has given Him.

Christ Himself answers for us.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some comments on the above words spoken by Jesus.

This comprehensive and very grand passage is expressed with a peculiar artistic precision. The opening general statement (Joh_6:37) consists of two members: (1) “ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME” - that is, “Though ye, as I told you, have no faith in Me, My errand into the world shall in no wise be defeated; for all that the Father giveth Me shall infallibly come to Me.” Observe, what is given Him by the Father is expressed in the singular number and neuter gender - literally, “everything”; while those who come to Him are put in the masculine gender and singular number - “every one.” The whole mass, so to speak, is gifted by the Father to the Son as a unity, which the Son evolves, one by one, in the execution of His trust. So Joh_17:2, “that He should give eternal life to all that which Thou hast given Him” . This “shall” expresses the glorious certainty of it, the Father being pledged to see to it that the gift be no empty mockery. (2) “AND HIM THAT COMETH TO ME I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT.” As the former was the divine, this is just the human side of the same thing. True, the “coming” ones of the second clause are just the “given” ones of the first. But had our Lord merely said, “When those that have been given Me of My Father shall come to Me, I will receive them” - besides being very flat, the impression conveyed would have been quite different, sounding as if there were no other laws in operation, in the movement of sinners to Christ, but such as are wholly divine and inscrutable to us; whereas, though He does speak of it as a sublime certainty which men’s refusals cannot frustrate, He speaks of that certainty as taking effect only by men’s voluntary advances to Him and acceptance of Him - “Him that cometh to Me,” throwing the door wide open. Only it is not the simply willing, but the actually coming, whom He will not cast out; for the word here employed usually denotes arrival, as distinguished from the ordinary word, which rather expresses the act of coming (see Joh_8:42, Greek), [Webster and Wilkinson]. “In no wise” is an emphatic negative, to meet the fears of the timid (as in Rev_21:27, to meet the presumption of the hardened). These, then, being the two members of the general opening statement, what follows is meant to take in both. - JFB

 2012/4/11 7:43Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
"The Betrayal of the Ages."

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9750&forum=40&9


Brother, do you have the link to Part II ?



Hi Ann,

Yes, actually I have the entire series expanded on my blog if you are interested. I titled it, 'none now live that remember'. This is from 2009. Here are the links:

http://realrevival.blogspot.com/2009/07/none-now-live-that-remember-part-2.html

http://realrevival.blogspot.com/2009/08/none-now-live-that-remember-part-4.html

Here is an excerpt:

Eliminating the Fuss?

Billy Sunday did not understand this. This is clearly evident by the way that he and then later Billy Graham dealt with anxious sinners. Let Billy Sunday explain his position in his own words:

“Some people think that they can’t be converted unless they
go down on their knees in the straw at a camp-meeting, unless they pray all hours of the night, and all nights of the week, while some old brother storms heaven in prayer. Some think a man must lose sleep, must come down the aisle with a haggard look, and he must froth at the mouth and dance and shout.

Some get it that way, and they don’t think that the work I do is genuine unless conversions are made in the same way that they have got religion. I want you to see what God put in black and white; that there can be a sound, thorough conversion in an instant; that man can be converted as quietly as the coming of day and never backslide. I do not find fault with the way other people get religion. What I want and preach is “the fact that a man can be converted without any fuss.” (Ellis. Billy Sunday 1914 P. 151)

Can you believe that at this point the language of hopeful conversion is all but gone and the use of the phrase 'got saved' is now on it's way to wide spread usage as the preferred terminology. This is a diabolic recipe for a mass of spurious conversions and false assurances. What about the 90% that are assumed will probably walk away from God? Is it possible that if someone would have taken these people aside and went "Down on their knees in the straw at the camp-meeting, and then they prayed all hours of the night, and all nights of the week, while some old brother stormed heaven in prayer. That they perchance would lose sleep or come down the aisle with a haggard look- froth at the mouth and then once they passed from death until life might then dance and shout when the Holy Spirit left off in conviction and poured in the oil of joy." (Sunday's anti-fuss comments revised)

There is a 'no-fuss' state that we can move in that God will bless, because we have truly made straight the path for Christ to come in; that is to say, we sincerely repented of our sins and turned from them. But there is another 'no-fuss' state that gets a whole lot of nothing done real fast.





_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/4/11 7:43Profile









 Re:

Savannah... Amen!

Krispy

 2012/4/11 8:12
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Q. Can we lose our salvation?

A. No

The question to be asked rather is, whether Christ can lose any the Father has given Him.



The challenge we have to such questions are found in Paul's writings in 1 Cor. 6:9, 10, Gal. 5:21, and in John's Revelation 22:15, etc,. These are addressed to the saints. We read in 1 Cor. 1:2 where Paul gives the address of the letter,.. "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. We have to ask, " Is there a group within this group that somehow are exempt from 1 Cor. 6:9, 10? How can a person, no matter their profession, count themselves to be 'saved' when Paul has said that they who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom? John wrote the book of Revelation addressed to the 7 churches of Asia. How do we reckon with these verses?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/4/11 8:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How can a person, no matter their profession, count themselves to be 'saved' when Paul has said that they who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom?



It was a wake up call to those within those churches that there are some who have decieved themselves, and others into thinking that they are saved. Paul is saying... no, if you practice such things you are not saved.

This is the evidence of not being saved. Thats what Paul is saying, in my opinion. Thats why we are exhorted to "exam yourself to see if you are in the faith". If you behave in such ways... you are not in the faith.

Krispy

 2012/4/11 8:24
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Krispy's: It was a wake up call to those within those churches that there are some who have decieved themselves, and others into thinking that they are saved. Paul is saying... no, if you practice such things you are not saved.

This is the evidence of not being saved. Thats what Paul is saying, in my opinion. Thats why we are exhorted to "exam yourself to see if you are in the faith". If you behave in such ways... you are not in the faith.



I would concur. But is this the general understanding of those that take the eternal security position?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/4/11 9:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I would concur. But is this the general understanding of those that take the eternal security position?



In my small circle it is... but I came to that conclusion before I even knew the church we currently attend existed.

So while I cant speak for all, it is my understanding of that.

Based on other teachings particlarly by John MacArthur I believe that this would be his position on this... In fact, his teaching on eternal security, and on those who seemingly "fall away", actually influenced my conclusion. Influenced in that I agreed with his conclusions and found it to be Biblical.

Krispy

 2012/4/11 10:41









 Re:

I'm proud of everyone!! 6 pages long and everyone is playing nice, and this is a rather pleasant conversation about a rather controversial topic.

Well done everyone!

Krispy

 2012/4/11 10:45





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