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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
hmmhmm's : ...just edify and stir one another up to study more fervent to know him and his word and to edify one another and build ourselves up in the most holy faith. of this i am convinced and i pray we would see that more and more



Reading this section makes me think of how the old time revival preachers would often challenge the hearers assurance of salvation. I think these conversations can be healthy if they cause us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith. I don't think a steady dose of challenging folks assurance is healthy, but we are reminded in scripture to give diligence to make our calling and election sure.

I think today we have a lot of what has been termed 'doctrinal salvations' or as Tozer is sometimes credited as calling it salvation by, 'logical deduction drawn from proof texts.' Paris Reidhead touched on this in 10 Shekels when he talked about how to become a fundamentalist.

If we could get back to genuine conversion and regeneration it would be easier to suffer eternal security type teachings; however, it seems like folks are moving in a very shallow concept of what it means to be 'saved' and then being taught eternal security. They become almost unreachable with the true Gospel as they believe they are 'in' and while some continue in flagrant sin and immorality. Just another angle on it.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/4/10 19:03Profile









 Re:

Robert writes......

"They become almost unreachable with the true Gospel as they believe they are 'in' and while some continue in flagrant sin and immorality. Just another angle on it."

And those who continue in sin become a straw man for those who do not lead particularly sinful lifestyles, but who were " good people," before their "salvation by logical deduction drawn from prrof texts," and continued to be " good people," after their " salvation." ........bro Frank

 2012/4/10 19:38
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Eternal security is only from abiding in Christ until final redemption of the purchased possession. The bible doesn’t teach OSAS but does teach believers to take heed so that we won’t be deceived. The command to take heed and the many warnings are to believers and not to unbelievers. There are many scriptures that teach us that Christ does keep us but there are also many scriptures that warn us to not fall away from the faith, not to sin willfully, and not to allow ourselves to be deceived.

For anyone to teach OSAS and to say that one who believes in Christ for salvation is eternally secure in this life as to relax because you never need to be concern about losing salvation must overlook the seriousness of multitudes of scriptures in the bible.

I believe we must first of all know that we have experienced the new birth according to the scriptures by experiencing the fear and Love of the Lord. The Love of the Lord is powerful and amazing in assurance of eternal life that He will never leave us nor turn us away but keeps us with an everlasting Love but with that also admonishes us to keep ourselves in his Love with fear and respect for God who has the power to give us the grace we need to help us overcome all the power of the enemy of our souls. We have an adversary the devil and we have an enemy called sin that we cannot win over without Christ living within us through the power of the Holy Spirit. We must be humble depending on the grace of God through faith to keep from being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. We are to continue in the grace and obedience to God by faith. We must trust in God all the way and we must have confidence in His keeping power alone and that God is all in all and that the only part we have is to keep our trust in Him and in His ability to cause us to live the Christ life. All the warnings in the scriptures are there to keep us humble before God depending on His grace in faith believing to obedience in the Lord.

Grace to all… from brother rbanks

 2012/4/10 20:19Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Hi RobertW,

Quote:

If we could get back to genuine conversion and regeneration it would be easier to suffer eternal security type teachings; however, it seems like folks are moving in a very shallow concept of what it means to be 'saved' and then being taught eternal security. They become almost unreachable with the true Gospel as they believe they are 'in' and while some continue in flagrant sin and immorality. Just another angle on it.



I think that this is important. I have known many "backsliders" who were raised in the Church from childhood yet could never point to their own conversion experience. Now, there are plenty of people who were raised in the Church and will never go astray. Yet, I know many who admitted that they never had a true conversion from-death-to-life or from-darkness-to-light experience.

Temptation is real...even for believers like us. Yet, why don't we stray. Like I said, this world has been ruined for me. I would only be miserable with Jesus because He is the very reason for living. The greatest pleasure that I get from life is from spending time each day with Him. If I were to go a day without praying, I would be exceedingly miserable. I know many other believers are just like me in this sentiment.

Is this because we have had a conversion experience?

When I became a believer, the born-again "conversion" was very real. I can go back to that same place where I came to the realization and poured my life out back to the Lord. It was a place in a field at a summer camp just a few yards from a big oak tree. I literally felt that I was born on that day. Life had completely changed...and I have never been the same.

Is it possible that this is what differentiates those of us who remain steadfast in the faith? I was born again when I was a teenager. I once had a pastor who came his life to Christ when he was just five years old. However, his description of the experience is a mirror of my own.

I do know a believer like the one you described, Robert.

He came to Christ and had a night-to-day conversion. He was bold and eager with his faith and held very strong convictions about what is right and what is wrong. However, he didn't receive the same type of instruction with other believers at his Church. After a while, he compromised on many of those convictions. Slowly, he began partaking in the things of this world that he initially stood opposed to. Little by little, the compromise grew more evident. Eventually, he became almost like an unbeliever in the way he lives and does...but who just happens to say that he believes in Jesus.

During a Bible study, he once accused me of "legalism" because I don't do some of the things that he says he feels the "freedom" to do. Now, if he was speaking of something that wasn't so obviously sinful, I would be more understanding. However, some things are just plain obvious -- including Scriptural prohibitions against getting drunk, watching pornography or smoking marijuana. Yet this young man who once guarded his heart from watching television now thinks that it is "normal" (or that there is "freedom") to watch pornography. He explains away the fornication as "moments of weakness" and fully expects to be counted among the faithful on that final Day.

You have to wonder just what is the end of such an individual.


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Christopher

 2012/4/10 20:40Profile









 Re: Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

Quote:
"If anybody said he had eternal life and lost it, he would be flatly contradicting himself. It could not be eternal, or else he must still have it."



Just thought I would AMEN that for you so that there is at least one.

OJ

 2012/4/10 21:26
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1975
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But there is a danger of embracing movements and theologies rather than the person of Jesus, Steve. When someone starts to identify themselves as " reformed," or " prosperity" or any other movement or theology, then they may have simply taken their eyes off Jesus? And when our eyes are off Jesus, we are all " swinging in the wind," despite the correctness of our doctrines........ bro Frank



Frank: This is very true. It might as well be "I am of Paul, I am of Appolus, I am of Peter..." It is, I think, a symptom of our carnality. We do not so much live in the word of God as we live in the world and believe and restate the soundbites. We must keep our eyes firmly fixed on Him.

Robert: Salvation is a baptism into His death and resurrection in regeneration. Being born again is more than a repeated prayer (though it is possible for one to be saved that way), it is more than a change in habits that we call conversion but is often just a greater discipline of the flesh and is in reality legalism. It is a literal death and resurrection. It is a work of the cross and the resurrection. Regeneration brings about a life the emanates not from my own ability but from His life within me. It is true, I think, that we have somehow lost a really true picture of what it is to be born again. But that is what happens when we take our eyes off of Jesus and begin to run after different movements, their leaders, or particulars of their doctrines.

I am reminded of a letter that John G. Lake wrote to Charles Parham. I found it on Eddie Hyatt's website. I wept as I read it. I always knew that somewhere along the line Parham got a little off. I know this because I was taught the peculiarities of his doctrine from the time I was born, and when I began to compare them carefully with the word of God I saw some obvious departures.

Now on the basics of Biblical Christianity he was no different than the PCOG that you are so familiar with. But is was some of the nuances that were the problem. And people majored on the nuances and separated themselves by those nuances and called themselves by Parham's name rather than majoring on Jesus and on sound and prayerful study of His word and upon continuing and growing relationship with Him. Lake pointed some of this out to Parham. The result was, I believe, that Parham never accomplished the fullness of what God desired for him to do and the body of Christ as a whole suffered for it. So it is when I am not focused on Christ. I can cause the body to suffer because of the lack of my part of that body to supply as the Holy Spirit gives me grace and anointing.

Oh how we need to lose a sectarian spirit. Oh how we need to hold doctrinal slants of men lightly and study carefully the Word of Truth so that we need not be ashamed. May God grant us the willingness to sacrifice our own desire to be justified before men, to prove our point, to be "right" and may He give us the desire to be faithful to Him and to His word and humble in all that we do and say.

That is not to say that we do not stand for the truth. But we must learn to differentiate the truth of the word of God from the theories of men about the Word of God.


_________________
Travis

 2012/4/10 21:38Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: "Secondly, the version of the Bible you're quoting from is incorrect. More reliable versions say: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."--kRISPY kRITTER



No offense to you Krispy, and this is not meant to be an attack on your statement or a disagreement with it, but i just want to point out something via this opportunity:

SO WHICH IS TO CORRECT "VERSION" OF THE HOLY BIBLE? WHEN WE MAKE STATEMENTS SUCH AS THE ONE ABOVE THE UNBELIEVERS ARE WATCHING AND THEY POINT OUT THAT: 1. WE CANNOT EVEN AGREE AMONG OURSELVES WHICH IS THE TRUTH and 2. EVEN THEIR "BIBLES" ARE INCONSISTENT WITH EACH OTHER!

PEOPLE, DO YOU NOT SEE???? THIS IS THE DEVIL'S STRATEGY, TO PRODUCE COUNTERFEIT "BIBLES". AND IT IS WORKING!!!

THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE ONLY UNPERVERTED BIBLE IN CIRCULATION TODAY, ALL OTHERS ARE ADULTERATED "VERSIONS"
OF THE WORD OF GOD. ENOUGH ABOUT "THE GREEK"! THE KJ IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS BASED ON THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS GREEK MANUSCRIPTS, ALL OTHER MODERN "TRANSLATIONS" ARE TAKEN FROM THE VATICANUS "GREEK" MANUSCRIPTS WHICH ARE CORRUPT, and this is proven with scripture itself.

For more on this subject please read:

"NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS: An Exhaustive Documentation Exposing The Message, Men, and Manuscripts Moving Mankind To The AntiChrist's One World Religion", by G.A. Riplinger

Until or unless you read this book which compares the versions and proves this, don't even bother to argue.

 2012/4/10 21:53Profile









 Re:

"THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE ONLY UNPERVERTED BIBLE IN CIRCULATION TODAY, ALL OTHERS ARE ADULTERATED "VERSIONS"
OF THE WORD OF GOD. ENOUGH ABOUT "THE GREEK"! THE KJ IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS BASED ON THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS GREEK MANUSCRIPTS, ALL OTHER MODERN "TRANSLATIONS" ARE TAKEN FROM THE VATICANUS MANUSCRIPTS WHICH ARE CORRUPT."

This is a misleading statement that was probably taught to you by someone with a religious spirit. [edit or repeated without knowledge]

Wycliffe, Tyndale, and Geneva were all translated from the same manuscripts before the unauthorized version turned the body of Christ into a nicolatian ruled organziation. Do your homework dear friend before. All KJV does is copy the prior works and make it more friendly for nicolatian leadership that wants to rule over Gods people. He then made it a crime to even own a Geneva Bible and persecute those who wouldn't bow to his new (un)authorized version. The fact that some think this is what God preserved His word through is strange..

Respectfully -Jim

 2012/4/10 22:03









 Re:

also-

We have Youngs Literal Translation that is translated from the same after KJV... to say KJV is the only one is false information. I was sold the KJV only lie too before by some friends that were sold it by some friends and so on.

In Christ -Jim

EDIT

[here is an old thread about bible translations]

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=27566&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

 2012/4/10 22:07
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

A religious spirit can label any version over another version and can also distort any version but I don't believe the Holy Spirit would have any part of this kind of desecration.


Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2012/4/10 22:33Profile





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