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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

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 Re:

Quote:
It had to be at least 3 and a half years to 4 until i actually started to notice a really change for the bad, i started doubting scripture,i started struggling to believe in Christ, started to not be able to hear the Holy Spirit anymore or not as much, i have started to desire the things of the world again and lose desire for God, i feel filled with unrighteousness kind of how those lists in galatians and romans puts it, i have really not much love in my heart anymore.

It's too bad brother that no one was around to tell us that this road wasn't going to be easy. What you have experienced brother is the normal Christian life.

You may as well settle it in your heart that your not going to get out of it that easily. God is working in you and this is the process to which we are to be taken.

Now ask yourself this question, what would be the point of grace if everything is going smoothly?
Where iniquity aboundeth, Grace much more aboundeth. Lucky for you and I that when we are engulfed in sin grace is going to see that we get out of it. It may take some time, but be sure that if you love the Lord and can't understand why you do the things you do, you'll be free. It will happen!

Did you know that Pauls letters were chiefly filled with encouragement and admonishments? This was the most important thing in his ministry was to encourage the believer. Why was that so important? your post is one very good reason.

Let us learn to pray these words daily, "Father, encourage me today", and then lets find out what He does.

 2012/4/12 17:59









 To be ordained to condemnation? It appears so.

Jesus-is-GOD said;

So some are "predestined" to Hell? ................

Jude says:
"There are certain men crept in unawares,
..!!who were before of old ordained to this condemnation!!

....ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Is ordained and predestined the same thing? It seems to me that they are.

 2012/4/12 19:00
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re: To be ordained to condemnation? It appears so.

Hi BrotherTom,

The word "ordained" does not mean the same as "predestined." In this context, the word is "prographo." The root "pro" means "before" or "above" and "grapho" means "written" or "described." It is translated elsewhere in the New Testament with this in mind.

In a sense, you could argue that the events of the Revelation were "written" or "described" "before" they actually happen.

Yet, another consideration is in regard to the lack of time (or the earthly concept of time) in Eternity. God knows the end before the beginning. He knew us before the foundations of the Earth were created. He knows our birth, our life and our death. He knows our future. In other words, God has known us FOREVER.

I sometimes wonder if this is what is meant by "predestination." After all, it doesn't mean the same as "predetermined." Sometimes, I think that people may have read too far into the concept.

For instance, I know that the month of May is just a few weeks away. I suspect that I can safely say that I will visit the SermonIndex website during the month of May. Those on the other side of Eternity already know whether this will happen. The actual event is recorded in the "books" that the dead will be judged from. From the perspective of eternity, one could say that the month of May and whether or not I visit SermonIndex during that month is "ordained" to happen because it is already "prographo."

Regardless, what Frank said earlier is true. The essence of this world is that man must choose to either serve God wholeheartedly, with lukewarm affection or ignore Him altogether.

This begs the question of whether or not a person who has come to Christ can ever turn his/her back on the Lord. Can a person turn his back on the Lord after having walked with Him? My sister did this. I know others who have as well. What will be the end of such a person?


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Christopher

 2012/4/12 21:06Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
This begs the question of whether or not a person who has come to Christ can ever turn his/her back on the Lord. Can a person turn his back on the Lord after having walked with Him?



Brothers and Sisters,

If we all could just be real for a moment...we have all turned our back on the Lord after salvation in various ways. There is no one here who has some years under their belt, who have not "turned their back on the Lord". Who has been perfect?

So, yes, one can turn their back on the Lord for a moment, for days, for weeks, or for eternity.

Thank the Lord that that you responded to His grace and love and came back to Him. But you did not have to. That is the beauty in God creating choosing creatures. He will have a nation and a race and a people some day who are not automatons. And who willingly chose the cross and Him over all the dainties (flesh and world) of Egypt. But it takes a lot of "failure" to learn His ways and more importantly, to learn and know deep down that His ways are always good for us and any other way is death.

The Lord wants us to overcome. He has given Himself entirely to us in order that we may overcome.

In the end, we will throw all of our crowns and rewards at His feet and declare that He alone is worthy.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/12 21:22Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Well brethren if salvation is only of the Lord and we are not responsible at all in any use of our freewill to believe and continue to believe, but that OSAS is true because we were elected before the foundation of the world to be saved because God decided to make us one of the elect then why not go on and say God makes everybody finally His elect because He so Loved the whole world.

I mean the bible says God is Love and if He elects some to eternal life then why not all because if Jesus died for some then why not all because all have sinned and can’t save themselves and we know that a loving God does not want any to go to hell and if he has the power to save some then why does he not have the power to save all if man has nothing at all to do with salvation.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

 2012/4/12 22:34Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

rbanks,

That is simply profound (and profoundly simple). If God is love, why doesn't He just predestine, elect and save all men? Wouldn't that be the compassionate and loving thing to do since it is His power anyway that saves and there is nothing we can do?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But why doesn't this seem to happen?

Possibly, because man has a part to play?

Pilgrim



 2012/4/13 0:09Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

The last two posts by Pilgrim and rbanks seem to 'hit the nail on the head'. So very real and true and cut through the theorising.

Pilgrim:"Thank the Lord that that you responded to His grace and love and came back to Him. But you did not have to. That is the beauty in God creating choosing creatures. He will have a nation and a race and a people some day who are not automatons. And who willingly chose the cross and Him over all the dainties (flesh and world) of Egypt. But it takes a lot of "failure" to learn His ways and more importantly, to learn and know deep down that His ways are always good for us and any other way is death."

rbanks:"I mean the bible says God is Love and if He elects some to eternal life then why not all because if Jesus died for some then why not all because all have sinned and can’t save themselves and we know that a loving God does not want any to go to hell and if he has the power to save some then why does he not have the power to save all if man has nothing at all to do with salvation."

Thank you!

Also what ccchhhrrriiisss said about predestination is good. That is, that predestination is more about what is pre-written by God because He foreknows, not pre-determined. You could say God predestines according to His foreknowledge. But here we are bordering onto things that are beyond our full understanding and completely outside our experience (we don't have complete foreknowledge or omniscience).


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Dave

 2012/4/13 4:32Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

hi brethren permit me to repost my post regarding the letter of john ,i was hopeing i could get an iterprtation on the verses ,insted of being ignored ,,i never had a single christan who believes he can loses his salvation give an exposision on these verse ,and others in the gosple of john

regarding pauls teaching about israle being cut of because of unbelife and the gentiles being grafted in to the tree

it is worth noting that all israle before the rejection of the gosple in a colective fassion ,were natural branches in the olive tree of god they were a chossen people

this had nothing to do with them being born of god and that being the reason why they were called branches ,as rement theoligy go most of those brances were ungodly pharisess and sadusses ,but were still branches in the tree ,untill the chosen time of god to commit them to disobedance as paul said ,and cut them of from the blessing of the gosple till the fullness of the time of the getiles is come,,
by paul saying that you have been grafted in is in the contex as the jews were natural branches and as a nation were exposed to the blessing of god ,now we as a whole ,the genites,,are grafted in to the blessing of god which is manfested in the gosple ,,the time is for us to experance the call of god ,,the grafting in is a colective expression of god turing his hand and eye to us ,,it has nothing to do with persons singular being grafted in as they become born again ,,that is clearly not the contex

as with the parable of the vine and branches that jesus spoke to his deciples ,this to his a colective expression of israle ,,he was speaking to jews and refuring to them as a blessed nation ,and him being the one who blessed and choose israle to be his people , it was not spoken in contex to a gentile and certainly not in the contex of them being attached to him through the new birth

he is saying you jews are the branches my chosen whom i love and many times have gatherd you as a hen gathers her chicks ,,,
every branch in me that does not bare good fruit is cast in to the fire and burned ,now is time for pruning

this is not at all speaking directly to us as gentile converts and us losing our salvation if we dont bare fruit ,,that is not in any way shape or form the oridginal contex ,tho im fully aware this is how many interpret it

il repost my last post ,if any one would like to give there interprtation ,,,iam utterey convinced in the interprtation iv expressed ,, but would apreciate ,the oposing view thankyou



i have to agree with krisipy and the brother he quoted

what do you brothers say about the letter of john ,which seems to have verses that are in the contex of apostates
as krisipy said

they went out from us because they were not of us
if they had been of us they would have continued with us
but they went out from us ,that it might be manifets they were never of us ,,,,,,,,john say in the same letter you are of god little children

we see that those who went out were not of god ,but as john says of the devil


1 John, Chapter 3



008:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



009:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


is it possable for a true child of god to fall aways from the faith and which is characterized by a sinfull life

not according to verse 9 ,,becasue gods seed is in him and he is sealed with the spirit ,,,the two clear reasons why a christain does not fall away as did the people spoken of in


1 John, Chapter 2



019:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



020:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

for his seed remains in him is one
because he is born of god ,was the second
and verse 20 of chapter 2 gives the same reason in others words ,why did you not go out with them ?,becasue you have unction your are born again you have gods seed in you


1 John, Chapter 3



006:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.



007:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.



008:

He that committeth sin is of the devil;


who ever practices sin persues sin ,continues in sin ,or the direct contex of the letter falls back into sin ,and apostasises

has never seen god ,nor has he known god in the contex of abiding in him and being truly born again

the verse can be literaly taken ,as who ever has not knowen or seen god has never abided in him in the first place ,but he is of the devil ,his sinfull life that we see in this case proves he never abided in christ

but he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him 5,18 of 1 john
19 WE KNOW WE ARE OF GOD AND THE WHOLE WORLD LIES UNDER THE SWAY OF THE WICKED ONE

a true christian will not fall in to satans traps , and become a disobedant child giving him self to the prince and the power of the air wich is the spirit that works in the sons of disobedance
my sheep hear my voice
and i know them
and they follow me
and i give to them eturnal life
AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH
NEITHER SHALL ANYONE PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND



John, Chapter 6



037:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



038:

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.



039:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


our father has a souvern will and plan for is elect ,
in is son he fullfills his will
christ did and is doing gods will and saving through santfication of his spirit is the mark of gods work and he who began a good work in you will finish it dont doubt gods power in you ,all things are posable ,dont bye in to the lie of the devil that you might walk away and deni his son ,,
i will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean
i will take out that heart of stone
and put into you a heart of flesh
and i will wright my laws on that heart
and I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND JUDGMENT
you are a new creation in christ ,
old things have passed away all things have become new

IAM WORKING IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO
FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE
YOU ARE MY CHILDREN ,AND I WILL NOT FORSAKE YOU
I HAVE PRAYED TO MY FATHER THAT WE MAY BE ONE
AND THAT YOU WILL BEHOLD MY GLORY THAT I HAD BEFOR THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
YOU ARE MINE ,AND I AM YOUR
MY BLOOD HAS BROUGHT YOU BACK TO ME ,AND MY FATHER WAS PLEASED TO HAVE ME DIE FOR YOU
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE REWARD OF MY SUFFERINGS
SHALL I NOT HAVE THE FRUIT OF MY DOINGS
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE PATITIONS I HAVE ASKED

MY FATHER LOVES ME AND HAS GIVERN YOU IN TO MY HAND
SO ENDURE TILL THE END AND KEEP MY COMANDMENT
I GIVE YOU POWER THROUGH MY WORD AND SPIRIT TO ACCOMLISH ALL THAT I ASK ,,IT IS I WHO WORKS IN YOU ,BOTH TO WILL AND DO FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE

I COME QUICKLY

WATCH ASK KNOCK



 2012/4/13 4:55Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Brothagary - I just want to pick up on one point you make.

You said regarding John 15: "as with the parable of the vine and branches that jesus spoke to his deciples ,this to his a colective expression of israle ,,he was speaking to jews and refuring to them as a blessed nation ,and him being the one who blessed and choose israle to be his people , it was not spoken in contex to a gentile and certainly not in the contex of them being attached to him through the new birth"

If we look at the setting of when Jesus spoke these words, it was clearly during the last supper (see ch. 13 through to ch.18). So it was not spoken about Israel as a whole, but to His disciples as individuals who had attached themselves to Him.
Look at verse 3 "You are already clean.." That cannot be unbelieving Isreal (or unbelieving anyone!).

I say this respectfully. Too often do folk dismiss passages like this as 'For Israel and not us!' because it does not line up with their doctrine. I have also heard this said about the whole book of Hebrews! You need to put 'your' doctrine to one side and let God's word say what it says and if neccesary lay down your doctrine if it does not agree with what the text plainly says.

I would rather have no doctrinal positions and let God's word speak to my heart, rather than bind myself to any particular doctrine and miss what God says to me in His word. I make an extreme statement to make my point you understand.


_________________
Dave

 2012/4/13 5:33Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

well brother actualy jesus was allready attached to them he chosses them before the foundation of the world chosse them as part of the jewish nation ,but that is beside the point ,,,,just because this happend at dinner and he said you are allready clean becasue of the word i have spoken to you ,clensing them with the washing of the water of the word ,
doesnt change the fact that the nation israle had both believers and unbelievers so to speak

wether he chosse and singled out some men whom the father gave him or not ,doesnt effect the contex brother

brother with all respect back to you ,i can say the same too offten brothers misinterptet passage like this ,because it does not line up with there doctrine

brother permit me to beg you to put asside your doctrine and interpret in its related contex

i used to believe this spoke of the bornagaing christan ,and i did put my preconviction and indoctrination aside ,and now i see this way ,,so i apresaite the advise ,did that allready

brothers we all have doctrine and interpretation ,you cant have no doctrine and let the word speak for its self thats what unbelievers do with our bible ,and look at there understanding ,,, dont do that brother,,,we need to have teaching or doctrine that sets a fondation for undestanding ,,,,maby the word for that is hermenutics

blessings

 2012/4/13 5:59Profile





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