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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

To keep things on track, this is my understanding of this thread:

What does the Bible say about those who do not persevere till the end?

Is this still the topic?

By the way, that was a good quote by Sturgeon, hmmhmm.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/12 14:27Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Pilgrim,

As I understand it those like Krispy who hold to the reformed view of perserverence believe that those who do not persevere til the end will be lost, as do we.

The difference is that they believe that if you are truly 'saved' then you WILL persevere and cannot turn away. If you do then you were never saved!?

This is why I say it is only something that the Godhead (who are omniscient) can really discuss and not for us to make a teaching out of.


_________________
Dave

 2012/4/12 14:33Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Agreed, Dave. Only the Lord knows.

And since none of us know, we should always be ready to help "fallen" brothers come back to the Lord and not consign them to the "lost" bucket.

"Well, I'm not going to help him since he fell away. He must not have been really saved so helping him will be a waste of my time, since it is obvious he was predestined to hell". <-- Do people who hold Predestination actually think like this?

Can we really say that someone was never saved if they turn away from the Lord? If someone has fallen away, who can make that judgment since their life is not over yet? Who has this knowledge? And this is why salvation is an ongoing process just like relationship with Jesus is. Ongoing process implies perseverance is in order by the Believer and mercy is in order from the Church.

To say someone was never saved is to say they were never indwelt by the Lord and implies that they will not repent and come back. We cannot say, someone was never saved. That is an impossible statement for mortal man to make.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/12 15:09Profile









 Re: Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

I didn't bring up "predestination" to make trouble, but to answer or question the "Prince of Preachers".
I know - "How dare you?", some would say - but I love Spurgeon and will continue to and I haven't an ounce of anger for those that quote him --- just as I love the Church that I'm a member of because they are HIS - despite our differences on this topic of TULIP.

We can't throw out one the letters of TULIP without tearing up or out the rest of the petals. Take out one letter and the whole of it falls apart.

To say that we can't know whether GOD has predestined some to Hell is not what "The Prince of Peace" has written for us. The fear this can produce, that He doesn't want for those that are back-slidden and it's the back-slidden that I'm concerned with - Not those of us that believe on Him with continuous-action-faith.

If it enters the mind of these that have fallen, that the problem with them is, that GOD has not chosen them to be the elect - I've seen this drag people to total suicide, when it's all so explainable, Scripturally.

We 'say' we can't explain it - but truthfully - it's the fear of men that stops us from explaining it and that desire for unity at all costs. That fear of not agreeing with this came with a sword and we shouldn't be fearful to be honest enough to look at history. Why must we fear to speak the truth, if our motive is love for the unsaved?

I wouldn't argue this with my Church, because they're all 'saved' but here, where people come on in a backslidden state and are so confused - Yes, no fear of man or desire for unity should stop us from pointing out the misconceptions of "predestination" and "election".

For those who are backslidden and desire to come back to GOD - I'll post just a few Scriptures and a short commentary of what the Scriptures have always said quite plainly.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people 'which He foreknew'.

1Pe 1:2 *Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father*

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate *to be conformed* to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Wesley on Eph 1:4 "As he hath chosen us - Both Jews and gentiles, whom he 'foreknew as believing in Christ', 1Pe_1:2.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons - Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint - heirs with Christ. According to the good pleasure of his will - According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only." [end quote]

Wherever the word "predestined" is used, it's 'to' some act of Grace that we receive 'after or with' salvation.

If we go with "predestination" in the sense that some take it - "freewill toward salvation is gone" - so this discussion wouldn't make a bit of sense if it's determined that we will be saved by His predetermined will and others predestined to Hell.

The long and the short of these verses that are used for that "P" word is that "Those whom He 'foreknew' would persevere unto the end would be saved and are called "the elect" ... even those who come back to Him from a back-sliden state. Freewill is pre-salvation and post-salvation.
{eta} He wants a Bride that loves Him of her own freewill.
The elect are those whom He foreknew would.
Just one symbolic analogy from the OT: Gen 24 - GOD foreknew that Rebekah would love Isaac.



GOD is calling the fallen to "Come Home".


Thanks for letting me say it.


 2012/4/12 15:17









 Re: Two Truths by Spurgeon

I think the only thing which is missing from this quote of C H Spurgeon is as follows.

These are my words not Spurgeon's.


Any truth which is magnified beyond its boundary becomes a heresy. Heresy is not a lie, it is a Truth expressed at the expense and exclusion of other Truths. Lies are easily dealt with. Heresy is far more difficult as by itself it is true. It takes a balance to know when something becomes a heresy.

If I go to one place and they teach pre-destination to the exclusion of all else then this will do a great deal of harm to those who hear it. Equally if I go to another and they teach perseverance to the exclusion of all else then this too will do a great deal of harm to many who hear it.

If I had to make a choice which place to go to I would have to choose pre-destination as this has to do with God Himself. I can always add the perseverance part even if I do get into trouble. This has to do with my brother or sister who I can see and serve. I cannot however change God.

Hope this doesn't seem too silly.

 2012/4/12 15:32
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

I would write out everything, but i have done it so many times not only on this site, but to others it tires me out now, lol. But all i can say is the lord seemed to transform me over 8 years ago when i believed on Jesus for healing of body. My desires changed and i wanted to serve the Lord and i began to love scripture, to obey the word, i began to hear the Holy Spirit speak and convict me of my sin, i had a love for all human beings and cared abut them deeply, i lost desire for most of the things of the world, no longer was interested in the things on t.v or sports that much at all or myself, i became very unselfish. I loved righteousnss and no longer desired sin. My eyes began to be opened up to creation and its beauty. But, as JesusisGod said i fell into sin wthn about 2 months or less after this time, i didnt fall away completely as you see 8 years later i still desire the Lord and seek him and read scripture and ray a lot, etc. But what happened was a very slow process of my heart becoming hard and me becoming into bondage of my sins again. It had to be at least 3 and a half years to 4 until i actually started to notice a really change for the bad, i started doubting scripture,i started struggling to believe in Christ, started to not be able to hear the Holy Spirit anymore or not as much, i have started to desire the things of the world again and lose desire for God, i feel filled with unrighteousness kind of how those lists in galatians and romans puts it, i have really not much love in my heart anymore. I have sought the Lord so much for all of this, i have had some good signs also being delivered from various demonic attacks and physical struggles. I have heard i believe the Holy Spirit on various occasions. But i struggle so much now, i really am not sure if i ever was fully converted, though my experience was real, maybe i was close to conversion or maybe i was. I think part of the reason i have been on this site for sometime and to others talking about my concern so much is because of my lack of hearing the Holy Spirit and really before i never really needed to go to others to be honest, i was strong in the Lord in a certain sense even though i was struggling in sin, i might have falsely assured myself that everything was okay with me and Christ. I don't know, but it really has been so hard, but i am still seeking the Lord.


_________________
John Beechy

 2012/4/12 15:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:
These are my words not Spurgeon's.


Any truth which is magnified beyond its boundary becomes a heresy. Heresy is not a lie, it is a Truth expressed at the expense and exclusion of other Truths. Lies are easily dealt with. Heresy is far more difficult as by itself it is true. It takes a balance to know when something becomes a heresy.

If I go to one place and they teach pre-destination to the exclusion of all else then this will do a great deal of harm to those who hear it. Equally if I go to another and they teach perseverance to the exclusion of all else then this too will do a great deal of harm to many who hear it.

If I had to make a choice which place to go to I would have to choose pre-destination as this has to do with God Himself. I can always add the perseverance part even if I do get into trouble. This has to do with my brother or sister who I can see and serve. I cannot however change God.

Hope this doesn't seem too silly.



Andrew, as I said earlier, I truly do believe in complete transparency and I'm grateful that bible4life is speaking out plainly and praying that a Brother here will speak back to him while the rest of us keep praying for him, for All of His Very Best.

About your post above - you just proved my point about TULIP.
Also, the word heresy - as most here know = "the opinion chosen" and yes, we're all given the freewill to choose our own opinion, but best to back it up with Scripture.
Biblically speaking, "heresy" is a lie against the truth.

How do we know if we're predestined if there's no sign of perseverence, as this thread is about? How do you know you're predestined?

Friend, I never replied back to your post below because of what I believe about transparency. I need to know who I'm talking to, as much as humanly possible and on a forum as well. To me I could only answer this with something akin to your first paragraph quoted above, though your definition of heresy differs from the Biblical definition and example.


Quote:
To Jerusalem & Rome
Nothing to share really. Simply a matter of the Lord's showing me where I will end my days. First to Rome (Vatican City) lastly to Jerusalem. Rome concerning those who take the name of Christ in that city. Jerusalem to rebuke a man.




When I say "Friend", I mean it with all of my heart.
We cannot muster up His Love - but once He puts it into our hearts, His love will lay down it's life for another.

I believe you do love. And if I were braver in my love for you - I would have replied with more questions on this post. Did I really care by not answering you? With the conviction of what I've heard from one of the sermons last week, still fresh in my heart, no - I didn't love you enough nor cared enough to answer with more questions.
Iron sharpens iron - but it has to be from His love. Regardless of whether we're judged by how we word our replies, as long as we're hurting in our hearts with love for that person, we'll stand before Him with it all without fear. Love does cover a multitude of sin or love will speak up.

I feel The LORD just wants us all to pray for one another.

Thank you to all that will. I know that we all need it.
GOD Bless!

 2012/4/12 16:15
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, i do not approach this question from a calvinistic or arminian view but from an understanjding of covenant and what Jesus did on the cross; cutting a covenant between God and man in His flesh as He was very God and very man. if you read of the covenant between david and jonothan and how david blest the son of jonathan inspite of his fear and hatred for david. how much more shall our Heavenly Father do for us ? Jesus not only cut the covenant but forever stands at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us ,inforcing the covenant.saying that; your sins will find you out... the sins of the flesh will be paid for in the flesh... the relationship becomes strained and the sinner loses confidence in his position and runs to the tree of the knowlege of good and evil rather than the Redeemer and looks to himself to do better and in his flesh there is no way for him to do so and he goes into and dangerous downward spiral.salvation is in Jesus and Him only.jimp

 2012/4/12 16:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Christian salvation is not just sitting back and lay idly or wantonly expecting His blood to cover it all...

And why not?

Isn't that what resting is all about?

Every time I lift a finger to do His work I get into trouble every single time. I don't know about you brethren, but He tells me that He will do the work, He will put the spark in us to do His will. I have learned to wait for His leading. Oh man, the times that I would try to put the word of God in practice and try try try to do His will I failed every single time. And I can still hear His words, "I didn't tell you to do that".

This generation is not going to be what we are seeing today; flesh. This people will walk out in the Spirit according to His good pleasure in us, not because I willed it, not because I wanted it to happen, but it will be by His Spirit.

We have got to remember that we are the host of the SEED of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are dead and when we awoke we became alive in this SEED with Christ which is in us. It's no longer I that liveth, it's this SEED that is doing the living now. It is this SEED that is doing the growing in us. My part is to yield to the growing process and to avoid grieving the Holy Spirit. Our daily bread is to hear His voice every day that is our food, that is our staple. Though it's feeding the SEED Christ, it's also feeding us because we are attached to Him.

I am not obligated to the SEED, but the SEED is obligated to me because He has willed it to be so.

Let me say this, I guarantee everyone here that loves the Lord and who feel very low on the scale of worthiness and don't do much in the kingdom of God, when God begins to move just a micro millimeter, you'll jump at what He is doing in the earth. There will be no struggle to pray, there will be no doubts, there will be nothing of that, you'll flow like a river flows and everything thatis in our lives that we have struggled with will move to the banks of the river, and it will all be carried away and be forgotten.

What we have never done is learned how to just rest and to hear His voice.

What do you want me to do today Lord?

His answer could be:

"Just stay here with Me". Or

"Go and apologize to your wife and tell her that you love her". or

"Take the $100 that you were saving up for something special and take it to the local food bank". Or

"Sit still I have something to say to you". Or

"Go take a walk and clear your mind". or

"Your next door neighbour is sick go lay hands on him".

Or it could be, "Your brother in Christ lost his Mother the other day and found refuge in a bottle, he is at petes pub down the street, go in there and sit with him".

 2012/4/12 17:30









 Re: Jesus-is-GOD on 2012/4/12 18:15:40

I am touched by your post brother. And I receive your understanding of heresy. Arianism for example is a lie. It came out of the truth however. This we must not ignore. I will pray for you as you asked and I know that you have prayed for me also. I also understand the need for transparency. I have no sense of being ignored, so be at peace; even as you are at peace. Andrew.

 2012/4/12 17:48





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