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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

private sin (that which harms ourselves and not others)



There is no such thing. Especially if I am a Christian, part of the body of Christ, nothing I do only effects me. If one member suffers, all members suffer with it.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/1/31 14:25Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

Okay, I understand what you mean. Obviously, you didn't understand what I mean. I agree with you. Of course, if my habitual sin is keeping me in any way from Christ in any way then everyone else is effected because I am not allowing God to work through me towards others in the way that He desires to.

However, what I meant was this: For example, recently at our church there was a situation with a guy and his girlfriend that were both in the ministry. They started having sexual relations and a pregnancy and abortion ensued. They confessed and were put out on discipline, counseled, and restored. The situation repeated itself, however. To make a long story short, after pursuing the Biblical model of discipline in the church to no avail, they were expelled. Now, there is definitely a difference between that and someone who smokes. Does God want us to stand up and speak against fornication in the church? Of course! Does He want us to stand up and condemn smoking as well? Probably not, or at least certainly not in every circumstance. I don't know the word for it, but there is definitely a difference. Fornication is something that you do to yourself and to another person and is likely to "spread around". Smoking (overeating, etc.) is something I am doing to myself. Now, of course these distinctions are not exact. For example, if I am an alcoholic, then I am destroying myself and probably my family as well. Smoking and certain other habits, however, while being wrong, are not mind-altering, and not having an immediate spiritually detrimental effect. I am not saying that we should never speak up on these things. What I am saying, though, is that we should be very careful to speak only as definitely directed by God if at all. Afterall, we are not confronting the offender to keep someone else out of harm's way. Why are we then? For our own pride, or to make ourselves appear more righteous? We just must be very careful and very aware of the sins in our own hearts that are so much less obvious to others.

Phebe


_________________
Phebe

 2005/1/31 15:05Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Phebebird, you mention some good points. Our own prayer and obedience to Jesus Christ must also be first and done, and we prayerfully talk to each other. We do need patience and wisdom in all things. We also must seek to obey the first and greatest commandment, love God wholeheartedly. God knows who is pretending better than we, and He will sort all things out on judgment day. We don't have to rebuke every little thing, but we do have to prayerfully rebuke some times.

Yes, there are sins, and part of christianity is actually teaching what is sin. John the Baptist was not imprisoned for saying "Repent the kingdom of God is at hand" He was imprisoned for telling the king his marriage was not right before God. Jesus was not killed for the sermon on the mount, He was killed for rightly calling the church leaders "hypocrites" Jesus says they hate Him because He points out their deeds are evil. When we know we are doing evil deeds, we must stop, repent, seek forgiveness and restoration and move along. Not defend the sin.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

simply put, smoking in the temple of God, is sin. A nonchristian can smoke, they have bigger problems than smoking. They need to repent of ignoring God. The greatest commandment is to love the Creator. The bible says we all have sinned against God in this way, no one seeks after God. Seek restoration with the Creator through Jesus Christ, our sin offering, and yes, Jesus can help us break away from other sinful habits in good time. But after we become christians, we need to be moving toward God and away from sins, more and more. And it is right for christians to say "hey, dear brother, this thing is not good for you, let's pray and be encouraged to stop this. This doesn't please God." Jesus' words in Matthew 18:15 tells us to do so. We can speak against sin in love, and still love the sinner. It is just so often the sinner feels attacked and wants to fight against conscience and blames the other of being judgmental. That is not the fault of the brother obeying Matthew 18:15, it is the sinner fighting against Truth. We all need patience with each other in such things, though. Following Jesus is not easy for anyone, if it is, they must be new, seek to obey Matthew 18:15, and persecutions will come.

But suffering and hardship in Christ is healthy, it leads to hope.

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perserverance; perserverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." Ro 5:1-4

Christians hate sin, love the sinner, just like God through our Lord Jesus Christ. But there is a day when His patience will finish and He will avenge His enemies. That is the Lord's work in His time. Love God wholeheartedly, the greatest commandment.


_________________
Jina

 2005/1/31 15:12Profile









 Re:

Church discipline should mainly deal with moral sin. We all sin, but there is a difference between smoking and sex. I'm not saying smoking is ok for a Christian, but I believe that God definately draws a distinction on morality. Sexual sins are a direct violation of the 10 commandments... a moral law. Smoking does not.

Watching too much TV can become a sin. EATING too much is a sin. How many overweight pastors do you know? I dont see them getting expelled. That's a habitual sin. Over eating is abusing God's temple just as much as smoking... if not more. But how many sermons have you heard on that subject lately? Not many, I'm sure.

Before we jump all over smokers... lets look at over eaters too.

Get my point?

Now... should a church have someone who smokes in a position of leadership? No. Why? Well, because I believe they are in violation of the requirements for leadership in the letters to Timothy and Titus. The leader is to be above reproach and have a good reputation. Smoking has negative image associated with it... and I believe a leader should be above having anything negative associated with them.

Leaders are not perfect, certainly. Not saying they arent.

Krispy

 2005/1/31 16:34









 Re:

Krispy,
do YOU smoke?

I'm just curious, not meaning to cyber tussle, just curious.

love, Neil

 2005/1/31 16:41









 Re:

I have been known to smoke a cigar when I'm camping... but we're talking once a year. (I mean, I camp all the time, but once or twice a year I have a cigar while enjoying the camp fire)

But I do not smoke habitually, nor have I ever. I'm a bit of a fitness nut. I run, lift weights, hike, etc... cant stand the idea of blackening my lungs. I do not believe it is a sin to have a cigar once or twice a year. Nor do I believe it's a sin to have a glass of wine every evening... which I do in order to keep my cholestrol levels low. But the Bible does declare drunkeness to be a grievious sin.

I'm not defending a smoking habit, if thats what you're asking. I think it's a dangerous habit, and I would caution anyone I know against it... believer or not... but especially a believer. My point on this thread is that someone's salvation is not based on whether or not they have conquered the smoking habit. I believe we need to be led of the Spirit... and if we have the fruits of the Spirit in our life... one of them is self control. A smoking habit is not self control.

Same can be said of eating habits... or any other habit that does not bring God's best into our lives.

Krispy

 2005/1/31 17:03
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

true indeed...wonder how many people read that...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/1/31 18:21Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

Krispy,
What you said was what I was exactly what I was saying. I hope you didn't think I was saying that smokers should be expelled or that moral sins were the same as something like smoking. I was saying exactly the opposite. I was giving an example to show that the two were different and that smoking, overeating, etc were different from sins that directly effect others (moral sins). Anyway, from your post it sounded as if you thought I was saying that the two were the same. Please know that I was not. I was replying to the post prior to mine. Read it if you get a chance.

Phebe


_________________
Phebe

 2005/1/31 22:06Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
that I don't believe we can do anything to make ourselves other than to cry out to God and maybe we can't even do that until he gives us the grace to do so.



Quote:
I see everything in black and white. I'm just as brutal with myself



Dian, I can relate so well with your second comment and I lived/live the first.

I smoked from ages 15-28---two packs a day. Before salvation I was quite the party girl----being in the military didn't help that either. Anyways, when I became born again, I had so much that needed to be purged from my life. The first to go was my Trucker mouth. The next was drinking..........first quantity, then to none at all (no condemnation to those who still drink in moderation----"I" just couldn't do it anymore.)......Then when I was pregnant with twins (didn't know it yet), I cried out to the Lord and asked Him to deliver me from this nicotine I could never quit before. I felt something "leave" me. It was the scariest/strangest experience, but then I NEVER went through withdrawl. It was all God, no Cindy----except I believe the Lord placed in me this aversion to smoking and I called out to Him for mercy and help.

What I do know is the Christian walk is a process----a process of allowing the LORD to bring us to repentance of those fleshly things we are held in bondage to. He then "delivers" us----sometimes in very different ways. Some ways are seemingly easy, some we agonize through.

I don't know how I feel about leaders in churches smoking. I suppose it certainly does show forth outwardly the overcomer's life, yet as many have already said, there are many "hidden" sins that we are held in bondage to that others never see....Even so, as we are made aware of those bondage issues, I believe it is up to us to "press in" and allow the Lord to do a work of conforming us....never excusing our bondages, always believing that ultimately bondages need to be loosed, not retained.........Blessings in Jesus, Cindy :-)


_________________
Cindy

 2005/1/31 23:16Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Smoking

Quote:

lastblast wrote:
Then when I was pregnant with twins (didn't know it yet), I cried out to the Lord and asked Him to deliver me from this nicotine I could never quit before. I felt something "leave" me. It was the scariest/strangest experience, but then I NEVER went through withdrawl. It was all God, no Cindy----except I believe the Lord placed in me this aversion to smoking and I called out to Him for mercy and help.



Just to explain something that I put in my last post, I'll repeat that I am a reformed smoker and so is my wife. Myself, I gave myself a week to quit, and God delivered me the next day, with no withdrawals. That was 10 year ago, and still no probs. My wife on the other hand, took a good couple of years until she stopped liking the smell of cigarette smoke. Now (8 years later) she wants to vommit when she smells it.

I have spent my christian life "flip-flopping" between statements like, "Oh it's okay, just wait until the Holy Spirit convicts you", and "Don't you know that it's getting between you and God". My first statment has lead many into further bondage to this filthy habit, while to second has caused many to look down on smokers, themselves included many times. The issue raised here (by myself included) has seemed to have been "Forget about smoking, what about 'XYZ', why do we ignore that." While that is true, that doesn't take away the fact that smoking is a dirty habit. It is a violation of logic and nature. In the twentieth century, we say "ohh, poor little smokers", while Finney openly condemned it (even if only on the issue of poor stewardship of God's funds).

Quote:

I see everything in black and white. I'm just as brutal with myself


We keep trying to reduce morality into "this isn't quite as bad as that", rather than saying "It's all sin!!!" I was just discussing with a friend how the world accuses christians of looking at the world in "black and white", where I believe that it's more like a precise shade of grey (#888888 in hexadecimal RGB:-)). Extremes are for the world, ours is the "straight and narrow path". Let's leave black and white to the Epicurians and the Stoics.

Please take what I am saying in it's heart, as I am not trying to take away from my earlier post, that smoking is "real hard" to give up. God may help us, or He may leave us with our own "self control" alone. At the end of the day, it's none of our business, ours to only to trust and obey, and what is trust without the possibility of failure?

Would I give this advice to everybody that I encounter that smoke? Of course not. I'd be more inclined to follow Bro Ron's earlier advise of using prudence in the given situation. Here on the other hand is a situation of the issue of "Leadership Smoking" being raised by people with discernment (well most of us anyway). I'm trusting that the people reading this are mature enough to prayerfully consider these words, rather than acting conpulsively on the matter, with "worldy wisdom".

Personally, I have no real issue with "leadership" smoking. Let's face it, so many "leaders" are appointed by man ahead of their time, and as a result are not true leaders at all. Does that mean that we don't submit to them? Of course not, as all leadership is appointed by God (Godly, or ungodly). Do I have an issue with a true "elder/deacon" who smokes? Well, let's just say that I think that that is an oxymoronic statement.

All I can say is, good luck to all in this battle.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/2/1 1:53Profile





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