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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re: Reconciliation of 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34!

Carlos, this topic has been discussed like other posters stated. The angle you are looking for has been as well but it lies buried deep within that topic's thread.

To answer your question I would like to share something...

The topic in this part of 1Cor. deals a lot with prophesing. The issue is how and when should this be exercised? and in what context? The issue is not what a person can not do but how does the LORD want his children to share the WORD. Think about it from that angle and see how the Holy Spirit would lead you to reconcil the two scriptures.

Blessings.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/3/11 21:47Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Hi Ginny Rose,

On a whim I decided to come back here to this one thread to see if anyone had posted anything else and lo and behold...there you were :).

This forum is a pain to use but I'll keep checking back to this one thread for now.

While I appreciate your input Ginny it leaves me somewhat perplexed as to how Christians all over the place interpret these verses from a standpoint of generalization to the specific as if by doing so we can come to grips with what Paul said in a way that does not lead us to take what he said at face value.

What I mean is your statement for example that "The issue is how and when should this be exercised? and in what context? The issue is not what a person can not but how...etc."

You correctly state that the verses in question and all of 1 Cor (I assume you meant chapter 14 more so) deals a lot with prophesying. You are absolutely correct about that.

But it is by no means only dealing with prophecying.

But...you generalize what you do see as something that is discussed and make it all about that.

I refer to when you say "The issue (as if there is no other being discussed) is how and when should this (i.e. prophecy) be exercised? and in what context?".

Furthermore you generalize what Paul says to not being instructions about what a person can not do when in fact Paul flat out states things that a person cannot do. One cannot speak in tongues without an interpreter, one cannot continue prophecying when a revelation comes to one sitting down, women are not allowed to speak, and so forth.

We cannot rightly interpret Scripture or even have much of a fruitful discussion if we go off generalizing all manner of things about those Scriptures and superimpose our generalizations on what is said as definitive.

Not only superimposing our generalizations on what is said but siding with our generalizations to the point where we refuse to acknowledge what is actually said in the plain meaning of what is written.

I do not mean to say that you would necessarily refuse to acknowledge what is said Ginny only that this is often the reaction of those who base their interpretations on generalizations when their generalizations are questioned.

All of which leads to a bunch of baloney in the sense that we get into arguments having to do with this or that generalization and whether it applies or not to a group of verses.

Some folks saying yes and some saying no.

That is a really poor way to interpret the Scriptures if you ask me. I mean making sweeping generalizations and superimposing those general understandings on what is actually said.

I would rather stick to what is said in the plain meaning of what is said and discuss that.

Trying to question generalizations and trying to show why they don't necessarily apply to the passages in question is fruitless since generalizations are not so easily set aside by those who subscribe to them as a means of interpretation.

Carlos

 2012/3/12 19:21Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

Carlos,

Relax...I believe in the literal interpretation of the application of wearing of a headcovering and do it.

I also understand that males are to lead in public worship when both men and women are present.

The controversary usually sidesteps what prophecy entails - all people are seeing is that should a woman wear a veiling, never mind the headship issue. I just thought that if one considers what prophesying really is and the context in which it is exercised it may help answer your question in reconcilling these scriptures. But then perhaps the fact that I am a female interferes with understanding what I am saying?

If I offended you, I am sorry. Perhaps it may help you to understand my post if you understand that this issue has been discussd many times and I had this in mind when I wrote what I did.

Perhaps I have said all I should about this issue on this thread?

God bless...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/3/12 20:14Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Hi Ginny,

Just so you know I did not in any way shape or form respond as I did because you are female and the fact that you are female does not in any way whatsoever hinder me from taking what you say on it's own merits.

I could care less personally if you are a woman, an atheist, a buddhist, a Mormom, a Christian, or whatever. If there is something of merit in what you say I want to learn what I can from it (though I would also add that in certain contexts it might not be good for you as a professing believing woman to be teaching men but that's another issue altogether).

I say pass along whatever you want to say to me unless you feel convicted to do otherwise.

I was responding to the substance of what you said. Nothing more and nothing less.

You certainly do sound like you took what I said personally Ginny by telling me to relax, bringing up the fact that you are female and implying by your question that I may be having trouble understanding what you are saying because of that, and saying that maybe you should not contribute anymore to the discussion on this thread.

I did not mean anything hurtful to you in what or how I said it Ginny and apologize if in any way I came across as such to you.

At the same time I must call things I see as I see them and your post did seem to generalize a bit too much in your focus on prophecying and it's definition as the main focus of what Paul says.

You have to understand Ginny that I have talked to so many Christians who generalize away what is said in the plain meaning of what is written that one would think we simply can't understand the Bible anymore at all!

That it's all a matter of generalizations and that everyone's generalizations are perfectly acceptable to superimpose on what is written to explain it away and negate any application from it at all.

Perhaps I over reacted. Again I am sorry Ginny if I did.

What you say in your response makes total sense about how understanding what prophecy is may help us understand what Paul meant to say better. I have no problem with that and absolutely agree!

That's not a generalization leading to a negation of what Paul said but a perfectly valid observation!

May I ask Ginny...

Do you think the context in which Paul's instructions in 1 Cor 11:5 are to be applied, to be an assembly of the church?

Do you think the context for the application of Paul's instruction in 1 Cor 14:34 to be an assembly of the church?

If both are to be applied when the church assembles how do you personally reconcile the seeming discrepancy between allowing women to pray and prophecy with head covered and not allowing them to speak?

I'd like to hear what your thoughts on that are if you don't mind sharing them.

Carlos

 2012/3/12 21:42Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Ginny,

I re-read what I previously wrote Ginny and I have to admit that I was rather blunt.

Sorry about that.

I have to watch that.

I would very much appreciate it if you would point it out to me if you see me being that way again. It's one of those character flaws in me that I am often blind to.

Carlos

 2012/3/12 21:47Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

Bro. Carlos wrote:
"Do you think the context in which Paul's instructions in 1 Cor 11:5 are to be applied, to be an assembly of the church?:

1Cor. 11:5 "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head,"

This verse is not placing a limit on time or place where a person prays or prophecies. Consider the preceding verse where the males are addressed: "Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head."

The emphasis is placed on order, government and how females fit in as well as the males. Males are to have heads uncovered because they bear the glory and image of God. Females are to cover because they are the glory of man. In observing this order by being obedient to this application will empower a person to work under the authority of God because you are acknowledging this authority, you are acting on this authority - like an ambassador does in a foreign country, representing his home government to in a foreign country.

In the public assembly where there may be many people, male and females, there must be order, government functioning. While there it is in all of our best interest to listen, be quiet, to learn what the LORD would be telling us.

Some would say a female should be absolutely silent and if this is the case then she should not be allowed to sing, either. And I have heard of people doing that. Have also seen where a husband practically would not allow his wife to say much of anything anywhere - she is to be silent, not only in church but elsewhere as well.

On the other end of the spectrum you have females leading the church saying they are gifted and it should not be hindered.

Personally, I would understand that in a meeting with males and females present, it is wise (and Biblical) for the males to lead out. They should be the teacher and if there are any questions, to ask her husband privately later. Or, ask the preacher privately later. Usually, I will compliment him, encourage him. Rarely, if ever, will I criticize or challenge him. I believe it is my job as a sister in the church to be an encourager to whoever needs it since I think we all need it. As the Spirit leads I try to be sensitive to those wherever I am...This is the ministry of prophesying operating as I understand it.

QUOTE:
"If both are to be applied when the church assembles how do you personally reconcile the seeming discrepancy between allowing women to pray and prophecy with head covered and not allowing them to speak?"

I see no discrepancy if 1Cor. 11 would mean the veiling is to be worn at all waking hours. This problem occurs when it is understood to mean to be only worn at public worship.

The bottom line, as I understand it, is to be an encourager. How can we best accomplish this? We need to be under authority. We need to be students of those more learned, of those who have greater insight them we. For example, what I wrote here is what our church would teach. We are encouraged and expected to be students of the WORD, walk with the LORD, be filled with his Spirit so we can minister to whoever we encounter wherever we are. Going to a formal worship service will teach us how we are in our understanding so we can better be obedient to the voice of the Spirit in our everyday walk of life.

Listening to males helps us females to become settled and grounded. Too many females think emotionally and thereby are easily mislead. God made us to be more emotional for a reason and He called it good, but it still is something that needs to brought under the authority of the WORD and the Holy Spirit.

Carlos, this is the way I understand it. Does it make any sense?



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Sandra Miller

 2012/3/12 23:19Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Hi Ginny,

You say much that makes sense Ginny and I appreciate you sharing it.

If I may so though, you are bringing a lot into your post which roams far and wide over the breadth and width of what is taught about submission, our overall purpose, the gift of prophecy, head coverings, and various other things.

For purposes of this thread let me just comment on a couple of things you said...

You say "I see no discrepancy if 1Cor. 11 would mean the veiling is to be worn at all waking hours. This problem occurs when it is understood to mean to be only worn at public worship."

I pretty much have come to believe the same thing Ginny. That the instruction for veiling is a general instruction for all times except for when assembled as a church. Where a woman may be veiled but does not have to be since Paul commands women to be silent during the assembly of the church.

In other words a woman does not have to be veiled when she is silent and not praying or prophesying.

Such an interpretation makes perfect sense and as you point out removes any discrepancy between 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34.

Incidentally it is often suggested that the veiling only inconveniences women but as a side not I too am very inconvenienced by having to not wear a head covering as a man. When I walk about in the cool night air I hate being cold. I hate being cold with a passion. I often want to pray at such times but to do so means that, according to my conviction about what Paul is teaching, I must take off my hat (i.e. toque) and walk around chilled in my head so that I can pray.

I am always having to chose between praying without a nice warm hat or not praying at all (which is not desirable either as I like to talk to God quite often...especially late at night when I am walking out into isolated areas of where I live).

What you mention about the spectrum among Christians to believe that women should not utter one word anywhere to that of believing that they can teach and preach just as the men can points to how rampant abuse is on both sides of the spectrum and how crazy persons who profess to be Christians can get in their interpretations.

I do not believe that Paul's command to be silent is a command to never say one single solitary word to anyone, at any time, for the entire duration of a church assembly (as if a woman is to put a piece of tape over her mouth and keep it shut during the whole time).

It is a silence that mainly though not entirely refers to speaking in a teaching or authoritative way to the whole church to express the things of God as might be done while prophecying, speaking tongues, interpreting tongues, sharing a revelation, and other such things (see 1 Tim 2:11-12 for more on this).

A woman must also not ask her husband about things in a church assembly so the silence is not just about things that might have a teaching or authoritative dimension to them since asking a husband questions does not involve either teaching or exercising authority per se.

But the main thrust of the silence is the exercise of spiritual gifts I think.

Thanks again for your input Ginny.

Carlos

 2012/3/13 3:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Incidentally it is often suggested that the veiling only inconveniences women but as a side not I too am very inconvenienced by having to not wear a head covering as a man. When I walk about in the cool night air I hate being cold. I hate being cold with a passion. I often want to pray at such times but to do so means that, according to my conviction about what Paul is teaching, I must take off my hat (i.e. toque) and walk around chilled in my head so that I can pray.

I am always having to chose between praying without a nice warm hat or not praying at all (which is not desirable either as I like to talk to God quite often...especially late at night when I am walking out into isolated areas of where I live).



Does God regard the prayers of men that are oil field workers in the arctic, miners deep underground, constructions workers, firemen, soldiers, etc, etc?

They all have to wear "headcoverings". What happens to their prayers and how does God regard their prayers?

Julius

 2012/3/13 10:08
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
"In other words a woman does not have to be veiled when she is silent and not praying or prophesying."

I disagree. To put on and to put off is bothersome - depending on the situation. Why not just put it on and then you can forget it?

QUOTE:
"If I may so though, you are bringing a lot into your post which roams far and wide over the breadth and width of what is taught about submission, our overall purpose, the gift of prophecy, head coverings, and various other things."

I know. You are right. I am well aware of the various application of this principle. Some say women are NOT to say anything and others will say, "yes, they can (in a mixed group), but under the authority of males." This latter point is where we are as a brotherhood.

There is a lot more to be said about women staying SILENT. I have also observed these ladies have nothing to say about the LORD otherwise making me wonder whether they even know Him? Scripture tells us to confess with our mouth the LORD Jesus and I would understand this is to occur in all of life when we interact with people wherever that may be. But to say nothing? Oooohhh...evokes more questions and doubts.

While on this subject I would like to share an observation. Most churches have abandoned the application of veiled heads for the sisters. However, it is becoming common now for the men to wear caps, hats in social functions, inside - out of the weather. Their wives in the meantime are bareheaded. I find this very distasteful, disrespectful. If a male comes into my house and will not remove his cap after being here for a while, I will respectfully ask him to do so! Yes, my nephew took offense for me doing this, but this is my house and if you are here as my guest there are certain rules I expect my guests to follow and one of them is that you will not wear a cap while socializing here in our house! Don't like it? You are welcome to leave, we will not stop you!

In closing I will share this. I find this topic wearisome because of the conflict it evokes. Why is it so hard to recognize lines of authority/government? Is it because too many are a hankering to be lords and not subjects? What if we were to concentrate on being servants, looking around to see how we can best help others? This is where life is lived at its best - being a servant - one who has no bragging rights or any at all, actually. And you do not have the responsibility of the success of the project - you just do as your Master instructs and let Him take responsibility of its outcome! This is my goal and to this end I want to be faithful.

God bless.






_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/3/13 11:17Profile









 Re: Let tbe sisters preach

Let the sisters oreach, veiled or unveiled. Jesus is their covering. If they be annointed by Christ, let them oreach. Let them evangeluze. Let them lay hands on the sick and raise the dead. Let them prophesy.

Di sisters, in the name if Jesus Ho and preach Jesus.

Blaine Scogin

 2012/3/13 11:36





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