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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The vileness of the saint

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White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Hello JiG, I didn't want to leave your reply unanswered.

In the following verses I hear Paul speaking in the 'Present Tense,' not about the Saints he persecuted before his salvation but about issues troubling him in his current state.

Romans 7:15
For that which I do I allow not:
for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not,
I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:19
For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

__________________________________

Concerning 'us' [and report cards] ....

I said
"If this were so, there would be some Saints who were 'better' than others because they had had more 'change' exerted upon them. Maybe they will get a report card with a grade? Will there be a grade curve? Will some be able to get a passing score for special reasons?"

I was speaking of in reference to Elizabeth's words:
"From the time ,the grace of God came upon Paul,....he was a changed man ,..and that same Grace continued the Devine influence upon his heart,..just like He will do for us,to continue to change us."

Guess I did not make that clear enough.

ws


_________________
Janice

 2012/3/30 18:51Profile









 Re:

Hi WS. Many scholars differ on chpt 7 and I do as well. I side with Clarke, Wesley and others that do believe that Paul is using himself as an example of a pre-Gospel person trying to be justified by the law.
I agree because of everything else that he's written.
We'd be going around and around on this - but so do all of the scholars - so I always opt out of that debate and hold what I believe to myself. Reading all of what Paul has written leads me to believe that the man was very secure in his walk with GOD and didn't suffer from sin as some folks would love to think that he did - because if he had - he could never be so hard on it in all of his letters. He was a very secure man in Christ, in other words, he did not serve the law of sin with his flesh - and preached against doing such.


GOD Bless, Sis!




Correction: it was Clarke I had open not Barnes.

 2012/3/30 20:27
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

JiG, oh, JiG,

One can not talk with you, you know. You say, "so I always opt out of that debate and hold what I believe to myself." After you wrote that, what did you do? Stated what you believe in such terms to make it appear indisputable.

If only you had done as you said you do. Oh, somehow I seem to have heard these very words being spoken by the Apostle Paul in that disputed Chapter 7 of Romans. But then that can not be, for only a vile person would do such a thing. If the shoe fits, we must convict.

ws


_________________
Janice

 2012/3/30 21:06Profile









 Re:

Read 1Corth 13.

What I meant was, that this Romans 7 debate has been on this forum countless times since I've been hanging around since 2005 and I never would enter those debates, but did tell you what I believe.

Blessings back at ya!

Ann

 2012/3/30 21:12









 Re:

I think too in our generation and what we have seen and experienced over the years that we may by fear are keeping ourselves 'down' so that we dare not 'share the glory' of any kind.

It would be prudent that we judge ourselves as to how we view this word 'vile' and the way the saints of old dealt with it and how we apply it to us. The results may astound some of us.

What we should never do is loathe ourself. Paul made the distinction between who we are in Christ Jesus and this flesh. "In me (that is my flesh) dwelleth no good thing". It's this flesh and our connection to it that causes us to cry out, "Oh woe is me, what a vile thing am I."

The flesh has been disconnected spiritually from us, we are no longer under it's power as Paul said, "For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But oh look at what comes after that, So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

What makes this whole thing disgusting is this flesh and the wiles of it trying to lure us away from walking after the Spirit. It's no wonder that such great men of the past all considered themselves to be loathsome because of the flesh factor, but they themselves were not rotten folk, though they had felt like they were.

Paul found that every time that he went to do good, evil was present with him and he cried out, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 2012/3/30 22:02









 Re:


How many times did Paul write that we are not to serve the flesh. Wouldn't that make him a hypocrit, if he said he 'serves it'?


It's this "look at self" that's become of the church and misapplying His Word that has watered down what the church was supposed to be - as Paul was the example to follow as he followed Christ.

No power in the church as long as it's eyes are on itself - either bemoaning itself or exalting self because they can't take what He's written for us and eat the whole of it.
No, self finds excuses to stay in it's miserable state.

 2012/3/30 22:18









 Re:

"The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley

Quote from the very same John Wesley whom JIG claims to agree with. According to Wesley JIG is missing this love.

Matt has got it though, White Stone too, others not so much.

Frank I see you are defending yourself again, doesn't matter if it is in first, second or third person. BTW Your blog bewrayeth your Apollos comment....


OJ

 2012/3/30 23:08
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

I would not expect your wife (White_stone) not to agree with you Old_Joe.

Mike

 2012/3/31 0:11Profile









 Re:

What is this body of death that the Apostle Paul talked about in Romans 7. Are unregenerate men the ministers of condemnation?These words are found in Paul’s impassioned argument on the reign of the law, which dooms the unregenerate man to continuous disappointment and convinces him of the terrible power of indwelling sin. In ancient times, in some cases, if one committed murder, the actual dead corpse was chained to the guilty one. This was a torture that led to a horrendous death. Can you imagine, chained to a rotting corpse? And yet, this is perfect imagery for the Holy Spirit to use.

If the old man is dead, and if we are forgiven, justified before the throne of Grace, then we walk in freedom, freedom from the curse of the Law. If we do not reckon the old man to be dead then we carry him with us, he is chained to us, even although he is dead and the putrid smell of the rotting corpse of the dead man will get worse and worse. It will take enormous self-effort to drag this corpse around. It is a very sad thing to see with your spiritual eyes, men dragging corpses around with them. It is one thing to have a dead body chained to you, it is quite another to voluntarily drag a corpse around with you when the Son of God Himself has set you free from the law of sin and death. It is very sad to see people whose eyes remain on themselves and and their sin and their vileness and consequently only every talk about whatever the passion of their lives are, themselves and their sin and their ministry of condemnation. This is the opposite of how the prophet felt in the presence of God, how he saw the King of glory high and lifted up, how after having coals of fire sear him he shouts out to God " Here am I , send me." One can only imagine what the ministers of condemnation would make of the prophet being so bold as to say " send me." Or another man of God say " imitate me."

Men are so determined to do it themselves that when a man is saved, that is not the end. He now has to be broken, he has to know that everyone of his efforts will lead to nothing but defeat. It may take one year, it may take fifty years, but every genuine follower of Christ will be broken and when the brokenness comes and total surrender comes, then, and only then do they realize that it is all God and none of them. We are the recipients of mercy and grace, not of wages. And the irony of course is that the man who discovers this, who simply kneels at the feet of Jesus, is the man who is transformed and changed daily into the image of Christ. Its not by might, nor by power, nor is it by our striving nor is it by our efforts, its by our brokenness and its by our surrender and it is by nothing else. This is the righteous man, this is the Holy man….God’s righteousness….God’s Holiness……God’s work, its all His work and it is His good pleasure to do it.

So one man preaches the message of righteousness from a prison cell, the other preaches the message of righteousness from freedom. One preaches from “Oh wretched man that I am,” the other preaches from “There is therefore now no condemnation.” One will enslave the other will liberate. One is focused on sin and condemnation, the other is focused on Jesus. One accuses others of having a license to sin, the other speaks of Jesus. One tells others how bad they are, the other speaks of Jesus. One tells others how Holy he is(although he would never use these actual words, it is veiled in how vile he is, just simply pride with one of its many masks) , the other tells people how Holy Jesus is. One tells people how much he has suffered, the other tells people how much his Jesus suffered. One tells people about the outward appearance, the other tells people that Jesus looks at the inner man. One preaches the sermon of righteousness with the human power of guilt, the other speaks of Christ’s righteousness and the Spirit of conviction works. One judges all according to his own standard, the other says “look to Jesus.” One tells people to cast their eyes upon their sin, the other tells people to cast their eyes upon Jesus. One proclaims himself a prophet, the other says he is simply a voice crying in the wilderness. One stands and proclaims “God, I thank you that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers or even like this tax collector, I fast twice on the Sabbath and I tithe all that I possess, the other thanks God for His mercy and bows his head low and considers others more highly than he considers himself. One thought himself righteous because of his actions, because of his works, the other knew that he stood justified before God because of Jesus. One cries “who will deliver me from this body of death?” the other cries “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.”

Life or death. Eye is dark and sees all things darkly or the eye is full of light, the light of Jesus which is the life of men. Are you a minister of life? Or, a minister of condemnation that allows you and justifies you taking up residence in Romans 7 and never moving beyond that. Some are Romans 7 dwellers as unsaved pharisees, some are Romans 7 dwellers as brothers passing through, and some are Romans 7 captives, brothers who are stuck in a life-time of no victory, where sin reigns over them and the best that will happen is that thier works will be burned.........bro Frank

 2012/3/31 0:25









 Re:

Quote:


I would not expect your wife (White_stone) not to agree with you Old_Joe.

Mike



Nice try Mikey, but White Stone is not my wife, we don't even live in the same country. She is a sister in Christ though!

OJ

 2012/3/31 1:43





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