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Paul is a beautiful study on this, and I have posted much before on it. When Paul says sinners of whom I am chief he claims it present tense as also not a whit behind the chiefest of the apostles, yet considering himself the least of the apostles. Why? Because Paul and only Paul can rightly claim that title. His sin AFTER salvation was against the most grace ever shown to a man! The more grace a man is shown the greater his sin against God, and since no man was ever shown more grace than Paul, no man can take that title from him. He alone is chief of sinners! Those who have been shown little or no grace cannot see themselves in the same light because one needs the light of God on the matter to see. Now Paul as chief of sinners, is ALSO of the holy apostles, the difference is that the holiness he proclaimed was not his own but that of Christ. This is where an understanding of the two natures of the believer is required to go further. In Paul were two natures, one that was his own which was entirely vile, and another that was Christs which was entirely holy. Christs nature in a believer, though imputed to a believer is still OWNED by Christ, it is not the believers. The believer is instructed to submit his own nature (considered the old one) to the nature of Christ (considered the new nature), because these two will war against each other until the believer dies. That is what the Bunyans The Holy War was about.
Now Frank, come on be honest, you know that what was pointed out was just a blatantly obvious truth that someone who truly was mighty in the scriptures would be able to see in an instant. I agree that the hard part can sometimes be admitting it, but that is only because one wants to hold on to a reputation. You need to know though that the person who wants to hang on to his good reputation, must do so at the expense of the reputation of God. When one finally places their reputation at the cross, they find no need to defend it, or have any concern about it because they have given it away. That is the lesson of becoming nothing in Christ that Burroughs was speaking about.
| 2012/3/29 20:43|
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Paul is even worse than you, me or Hitler, that is how he could claim the title CHIEF of sinners. His sin AFTER salvation was against more grace than you, me, or Hitler were ever shown.
| 2012/3/29 20:47|
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Hi guys, you will notice that i do not reply directly to Joe as he has already stated that I am not saved. Apparently there are only two people saved on this forum, Joe being one of them and the person that invited Joe here too, well I guess, to save us. So I really do not see the fruit in debating with Joe, but I would urge love and prayer.
On the plus side, Joe told me that if he is mistaken and I am actually saved then it is a reproach for which I will receive a blessing for in heaven. I would say that I have already been blessed. It is a samll thing for someone to say I do not Jesus :) It would be like saying I do not know my wife. It just creates a saddness in me.
I admit to smiling when Joe accused me of pride when choosing the name appolus. I took the name just a few years after coming to Christ because this person apollos needed to be taught more perfectly:) I am sure that Joe would agree that I need to be taught more perfectly.....bro Frank
| 2012/3/29 22:31|
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My dear and precious bro. Joe,
You said, "Paul is worse than you,me or Hitler,that is how he claimed
The title CHIEF of sinners.His sin AFTER salvation was against more
grace than you,me or Hitler were ever shown."
How can I say this ?
Paul was talking about before his conversion,...when he thought he was right in what he was doing,...BUT he was oh so wrong....beating up the Saints,...killing them,..draging them in,that is when he was the CHIEF of sinners.
But then God sent His GRACE upon Paul,..
* " The DEVINE enflence upon the heart, "
And Paul then sought " the kingdom of God, and His righteousness. "
Remember,what he said,when grace drawed him to the Lord,..."WHAT WOULD THOU HAVE FOR ME TO DO LORD ? "
* And Grace' reflection in the life,...( the doing of the Word )
He Repented, ..and turned completely around and started following the Lord.
Remember,...he said a lot about ' this Grace ' ,...he did not take this Grace in vain,..it did it's Devine work in him.
Do you remember all of what Paul said about Grace ?...I do not remember
It all,..I know it was a lot,...I really need to read back up on this.
You may could bring some of this back to remembrance for me ?
From the time ,the grace of God came upon Paul,....he was a changed
man ,..and that same Grace continued the Devine influence upon his heart,..just like He will do for us,to continue to change us.
So now, may our studies be blessed,
| 2012/3/29 22:38||Profile|
North Central Florida
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In Romans Paul wrote: Chapter 7:14b -- But I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This does not fit with your picture of Paul. How do you reconcile that?
You also said,"From the time ,the grace of God came upon Paul,....he was a changed
man ,..and that same Grace continued the Devine influence upon his heart,..just like He will do for us,to continue to change us."
If this were so, there would be some Saints who were 'better' than others because they had had more 'change' exerted upon them. Maybe they will get a report card with a grade? Will there be a grade curve? Will some be able to get a passing score for special reasons?
The only good done by any of us is done by Jesus, through us. There is no good in ourselves. We are not even able to praise the Lord except by the Holy Spirit. If it was left up to us, we would have reason to boast of our own abilities. Don't you see that?
| 2012/3/29 23:11||Profile|
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Sis WhiteStone, it's dangerous to remove Romans 7 from chpts 6 and 8. Paul didn't put those divisions of chpts in his letter to the Romans ... it was one continuous flow.
As far as taking just one verse here or there about how Paul felt about himself - I think that there also - we need to know the whole of His N.T. and not pull verses.
That's where the contention has come from on this thread and others - is when only a few verses are pulled out of context of the minds of the Apostles and leaving the other side of their teachings out.
Learning from a man is dangerous sometimes - unless he can answer the Scriptures that balance out his over-emphasis on his pet verses and if he can do more than quote verses to the saved that were written to or about the unsaved.
This list is not exhaustive but for just a glimpse into the parts that you disagree with our sister over ....
Concerning Paul's guilt and why he said what he did about himself ....
Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
1Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, BECAUSE I persecuted the church of God.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, *persecuting the church*; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
How he saw himself as an Apostle .....
2Cor 11:5 **For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.**
2Cor 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you:
*for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles*, though I be nothing.
1Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but *I laboured more abundantly than they all*: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Gal 2:6-9 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: but contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Concerning 'us' [and report cards] ....
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
1Pet 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear....
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot......
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
In His Peace & Love.
| 2012/3/30 0:01|
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When we are in the presense of the King we will be put in our place, we must never forget the place we are put. We must always keep in mind that Paul's focus was Spiritual rather than Physical. Where we run into trouble is individuals use the scriptures to chase away their true state and numb the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "We're the King's kids" is a phrase I have heard used and these individuals use such phrases to elevate themselves above "sinners" and completely forget they were once ignorant and very likely still are.
This I believe is what Old Joe is getting at, we must never EVER forget our vile state that is still attached to us as humans. We will live with it till we die and are given glorified bodies. So it would be foolish to elevate something that is beneath the earth.
Where does Joy come in? Not in my standing or my Holiness but the Holiness of Christ Jesus who is my holiness and this doesn't make me a better person above sinners. And that is the difference.
| 2012/3/30 8:53||Profile|
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Where does Joy come in?
No one on this thread has claimed their own righteousness, Matt.
I signed off on one post with Phil 3:7-15 and the others said as much by their own posts - everyone of them.
If you believe that those from page 1 on to pg 9 that have seen "what Old Joe is getting at" and you disagree with them as "self-righteous", than maybe you'd do better to read from page 1 on and see how many that would be.
Easy believism has destroyed the church and many lives and marriages and so has bitter-spirits.
| 2012/3/30 11:37|
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While I didn't in detail read every single post of this thread, I have had personal conversations with Old Joe and know what page he is on. Many misunderstand what he is getting at by Vileness of the Saint.
If you look at the Holiest men of the past you will find that many of them agree with Old Joe's thought process of vileness or undeserving entitlement.
Take Peter for example, made new in Christ Jesus and was a very close disciple of Christ Jesus, that Christ called him friend. You would think he would honorably die the very same martyrs death. Though he was forgiven and understood the Righteousness of Christ he had Rome crucify him upside down. Surely he would have been okay with a normal cruxifiction had he idenitified himself with Christ and claimed his sainthood then and there. But he didn't.
We must never forget that we are lowly, and we will find our Joy comes from what Christ has done for us, the forgiveness and mercy shown to us. I am no saint but I am a joyfilled sinner because there is mercy and grace for me.
| 2012/3/30 14:37||Profile|
North Central Florida
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Ditto to EVERYTHING mguldner said in his post.
Agree with him and Old Joe.
| 2012/3/30 17:45||Profile|