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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The vileness of the saint

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Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

 2012/4/8 19:17









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Quote:
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.



Great exhortation, except it is not needed for the righteous, it is only needed for those who recognize the vileness of the lusts of the flesh still resident in them (that whole exhortation is meant for the saved only, it has nothing to do with the lost).


OJ

 2012/4/8 20:36









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As I was making some hummus I started thinking about this thread and about our salvation. I began to wonder how many of us who think of ourselves so vile and after condemning ourselves for falling short of the glory of God still believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved? I mean be honest. Anyone who thinks of themselves as wretched and unfit would have a hard time believing that they are saved at all. If anyone says yes, I would have a hard time believing you. I've been there and believe me, you don't think your saved at all when you think your vile. Now to find those rice crackers.

Blessings and Good Night.

 2012/4/8 22:01









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Quote:
As I was making some hummus I started thinking about this thread and about our salvation. I began to wonder how many of us who think of ourselves so vile and after condemning ourselves for falling short of the glory of God still believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved? I mean be honest. Anyone who thinks of themselves as wretched and unfit would have a hard time believing that they are saved at all. If anyone says yes, I would have a hard time believing you. I've been there and believe me, you don't think your saved at all when you think your vile. Now to find those rice crackers.



Good to see you are thinking about it. :-)

"Anyone who thinks of themselves as wretched and unfit would have a hard time believing that they are saved at all."

Sure, if they believed that their fitness or righteousness were requirements for their salvation.

The funny thing is that it goes the opposite. It is when you start thinking about your fitness, worthiness, changedness etc for salvation that you come to depend upon these things instead of Christ. This is what Paul addressed with the Galatians and is what the whole LS house of cards ministry is based on. Take away the card of personal righteousness and the whole thing crumbles.

Once one has an understanding of grace, the matter of fitness and worthiness falls by the wayside, and all that is left is to fall on Christ. The reality is that there are examples here of the most vocal people on the other side of this issue who actually struggle with assurance (for privacy sake I won't quote them). There was a time when I struggled with assurance as well, it was when I fell into the same trap as they are in, but having escaped that trap the struggle is long gone, and there is nothing left but full assurance.

The issue of the vileness of the saint, is only opposed by those who feel they must contribute something to attain or maintain their 'salvation'. These people have to trust what they are doing, and if it were to be considered vile, that which they have placed their hope in becomes crushed. That is where the big opposition to this issue comes. As you can see with Wesley though, he came through his thoughts of perfection to understand his own vileness, so escaping from that trap can be done!


OJ

 2012/4/8 22:22









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And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning *craftiness,
whereby they lie in wait to deceive



You don't represent Wesley and that was shown by the quote from Wesley regarding Romans 7 on the bottom of the previous page.
Wesley never preached against "obedience" as you have and are doing in your own subtle way, as was shown last year.
You do not teach according to Wesley and especially not what Paul wrote/taught. You have you're own 'mix' [typical tactic of false teachers] that has caused others to stumble. The deception has been birthed by your desire to be followed, so you put your own twist on Paul's very words - The Word of GOD - by short incomplete quotes from Scripture or authors and accusations leveled against His saints.
This has been ungoing and the whole counsel of GOD's WORD is what is being wrested by you and that is the where you will find your trouble, eventually.
Not with any members here or even the moderators - but with The LORD Himself.
No one wrests HIS WORD with His Sheep without serious consequences, unless they do it out of pure ignorance of His Word and without any ulterior motives.
They are HIS sheep, so fear GOD and HE has delivered HIS Word through His prophets and apostles for them. You represent none and pervert all, thus Eph 4:14 above and 2Pe 3:14-16 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Pray for mercy, Joe. The LORD is a very jealous & protective GOD.

 2012/4/9 0:56









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"To confess that we are rotten, good for nothing, useless and foolish, is not humility, but unbelief!! If we keep on confessing that, we will remain useless forever. False humility like that is often mistaken for the genuine thing by undiscerning believers! But Jesus told us to learn humility from Him (Matt.11:29). And where do we find Jesus ever confessing that He was useless and good for nothing? Never.

True humility is taking the place of entire nothingness before God, so that God might be all in all. This is the place that Jesus took as a man. This is what we must do too. In that lowly place, we can trust God to do a mighty work in us and through us, and to crush Satan under our feet."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44164&forum=34&0

 2012/4/9 1:53
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """"To confess that we are rotten, good for nothing, useless and foolish"""

Is this what we are to keep our minds on? NOT!!!!!

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

This is the lowliness we we should attain to.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Not this.

Quote: """"To confess that we are rotten, good for nothing, useless and foolish"""

But this;

""""
is what we must do too. In that lowly place, we can trust God to do a mighty work in us and through us, and to crush Satan under our feet."



Yes:::: with Data's fist. Amen JIG

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/4/9 23:07Profile









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I love Spurgeon, but the basis of his sermon on us being vile is based upon his belief that Romans 7 was of Paul speaking of himself - which Wesley and others do not believe, and neither do I.
And his second reasoning is that we still have "Adam's old nature" ... the two natures belief.
We battle the flesh but our old natures were crucified with Christ.

The thread about 'where are the Godly men' comes to mind - because until a man comes to understand what he has been given in Christ and what is available to him, he'll never experience the fulness of GOD. He'll be short-changed by his own beliefs alone.
Why it's best to learn doctrine from His Book with His help alone first, before reading other's doctrines.
He holds us responsible for deriving our doctrine in that manner only. We'll never be able to blame anyone else for our falling short in His truth and our usefulness to Him.

Amen, Brother Philip.

 2012/4/10 3:56









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Interestingly enough Wesley stands not very far from Tozer theologically speaking, yet neither of them will stand with any as brothers or sisters, who do not recognize their own vileness.

“The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley

"In the light of this it is not hard to see why the Christian's attitude toward self is such an excellent test of the validity of his religious experiences.
A good rule is this: If this experience has served to humble me and make me little and vile in my own eyes it is of God; but if it has given me a feeling of self-satisfaction it is false and should be dismissed as emanating from self or the devil." A.W. Tozer


OJ

 2012/4/11 0:58









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Have you read much of Watchman Nee, OJ?

If so, do you feel that he ever taught the exaltation of "self"?

 2012/4/11 1:05





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